Where do you stand? (2 Viewers)

[loquasagacious]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Do most libertarians not believe in mental illness?

Not enough context in the scenario to determine if the subject was doing it as a result of mental illness. I took it as analogous to committing suicide which while we may encourage people not to do is ultimately something I think people should be free to do as sovereign owners of their own bodies.

 

[Silver Persian]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Silver Persian- I do believe in mental illness although I also believe that at times it is best that it is left unmedicated because often the words "mental illness" are nothing more than stickers slapped on people because society does not acknowledge their legitimate feelings of anger and/or sadness.

What kind of behaviours would you classify as mentally ill though? If someone wants to shake in a corner and starve themselves to death, is this their choice?

 

[ay0_x]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

What kind of behaviours would you classify as mentally ill though? If someone wants to shake in a corner and starve themselves to death, is this their choice?

I'm not a therapist but...

In regards to psychotic vs nonpsychotic mental illness there's no denying the "illness" aspect of psychosis. Schizophrenia is something entirely different to depression

 

[loquasagacious]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

And I would expect no less of you.

Let me know how making suicide illegal works out for you.

Firstly I'd like to think the fact I am related to someone would not be a factor in deciding whether or not I exploited them for my own pleasure. With that being said sparring a person suffering via what could be fairly described as "tough love" is not selfish in the remotest.

And I'd like to think that you wouldn't coerce anyone for your own pleasure but apparently you will so it is interesting to see where you draw the line. I think that people can decide themselves if they want to indulge and suffer or abstain and not suffer. Your tough-love is a paternalistic approach which overtly establishes that you know better than another person and therefore are justified in intervening in their life.

Also if you really want to spare a grandparent suffering I think you would legalise euthanasia.

 

[loquasagacious]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

What kind of behaviours would you classify as mentally ill though? If someone wants to shake in a corner and starve themselves to death, is this their choice?

What behaviours would you classify as mentally ill and deserving of state intervention? Women dating men who are emotionally abusive?

 

[Lentern]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Agreed completely.

My grandmother died happily living the way she did. For some people, hedonistic pleasures such as food, sex and drink are all that's needed to make them happy. Who am I to take that away?

I also think you are patronising people. If people do not want to be healthy, THEIR CHOICE. If they do, that is entirely their choice also. People are smart enough to make their own decisions. Stop patronising them and thinking they're clueless!

If a man is driving into a wall repeatedly there is a reason for his behaviour. He obviously wants to experience pain for one reason or another. Let him. If I stop him, he will find another way to do it.

People have more than earned patronization over the years.

I don't like using your grandmother as an example, it feels too callous so I'll just say that I find it very presumptuous of you to say the mere fact that someone chooses the ice cream means they would have would rather have ice cream and diabetes than neither. Particularly the more introverted people of the world will often find that living in the way that delivers them more "happiness" is contrary to some extremely powerful intuitions. You seem a nice enough person so I'm sure you don't think this is merely a case of them needing to "toughen up."

That you'd let him inflict so much pain upon himself is astounding and I'm sorry but shows a horrifying indifference to human suffering. It looks startling similar to saying that in the name of not being patronizing you won't stop someone doing what is quite absolutely the wrong thing to do.

 

[Silver Persian]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

What behaviours would you classify as mentally ill and deserving of state intervention? Women dating men who are emotionally abusive?

I have no idea.

But you didn't answer my question.

Because surely the entire concept of mental illness relies upon a particular notion of rationality, and the adjudication of right/wrong patterns of perception - which would seem slightly antithetical to libertarianism. So do you (BOS libertarians) believe that mental illness exists, or are people just making different life choices?

And if it does exist, what defines mental illness?

 

[loquasagacious]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

I have no idea.

But you didn't answer my question.

Because surely the entire concept of mental illness relies upon a particular notion of rationality, and the adjudication of right/wrong patterns of perception - which would seem slightly antithetical to libertarianism. So do you (BOS libertarians) believe that mental illness exists, or are people just making different life choices?

And if it does exist, what defines mental illness?

I also don't really know... interesting issue... new thread for it imo.

 

[ashie0]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

I also don't really know... interesting issue... new thread for it imo.

I was hanging out for your answer, now I'm shattered.

 

[ay0_x]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

People have more than earned patronization over the years.

I don't like using your grandmother as an example, it feels too callous so I'll just say that I find it very presumptuous of you to say the mere fact that someone chooses the ice cream means they would have would rather have ice cream and diabetes than neither. Particularly the more introverted people of the world will often find that living in the way that delivers them more "happiness" is contrary to some extremely powerful intuitions. You seem a nice enough person so I'm sure you don't think this is merely a case of them needing to "toughen up."

That you'd let him inflict so much pain upon himself is astounding and I'm sorry but shows a horrifying indifference to human suffering. It looks startling similar to saying that in the name of not being patronizing you won't stop someone doing what is quite absolutely the wrong thing to do.

Happiness isn't measurable by any criteria. I cannot look at somebody's status, wealth, health or appearance and guess if they are happy. I like to think if someone says they are happy, then they are happy. Happiness is not universal. Perhaps to you good health means happiness. But are you dooming, say, a cancer sufferer to a life of misery and glum? Or a mentally retarded child? Are they never to be happy by your standards?

I do not have a horrible indifference to human suffering; I do, however, realise that humans do what they do for a reason. I may take away his car and knock down the wall, who's to say he won't slit his wrists and overdose instead? This man is feeling something that is causing him to act out in the way that he does. He can continue doing what he is doing, or he can reach out and get help. I can look at him, offer a helping hand, but I refuse to let anybody force him to do something he does not have the willpower to do.

I refuse to patronise anybody because the more you patronise somebody the lower standards they will strive for.




Silver_Persian: Like I said, I believe in mental illness (especially autism, schizophrenia and epilepsy), but I also think doctors get very trigger-happy with the prescription trigger when it comes to antidepression meds. I define mental illness as a condition that stops the sufferer from thinking rationally. EDIT: Stops the sufferer from thinking rationally, behaving rationally and has an adverse effect on their overall wellbeing, over a prolonged period of time.

 

[Lentern]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Let me know how making suicide illegal works out for you.





And I'd like to think that you wouldn't coerce anyone for your own pleasure but apparently you will so it is interesting to see where you draw the line. I think that people can decide themselves if they want to indulge and suffer or abstain and not suffer. Your tough-love is a paternalistic approach which overtly establishes that you know better than another person and therefore are justified in intervening in their life.

Also if you really want to spare a grandparent suffering I think you would legalise euthanasia.

If you mean that I would take pleasure in another persons welfare then I don't deny coercion is a hurdle I would happily clear in such a pursuit, even involving grandmothers.

Very close, I do think that certain people no better and am not ashamed to admit it. I am part of no minority for believing that if our parliament is any indication. The only charge I deny is that I think I know better rather I think I know someone knows better. Does empowering the academic elite to decide for the plebs open us up to all sorts of corruption problems? Ofcourse it does this is all hypothetical and depends on those at the top having purely benevolent mindsets.

Have I lead you to believe I'm against euthanasia? Don't let the catholic thing fool you I'm frequently derided as a heretic by the powers that be. I'm all for euthanasia.

 

[loquasagacious]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

I was hanging out for your answer, now I'm shattered.

Now I'm flattered.

Happily discuss my nascent thinking on the topic in another thread rather than continue to drag this one off-topic.

 

[KFunk]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

I also don't really know... interesting issue... new thread for it imo.

There was a little discussion of this a while back in the depression thread. I recall posting on ways of defining mental illness and causation/chemicals [/laziness].

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Does empowering the academic elite to decide for the plebs open us up to all sorts of corruption problems? Ofcourse it does this is all hypothetical and depends on those at the top having purely benevolent mindsets.

I am glad you have managed to admit this. The philosophy and "science" of happiness is an interesting topic, no doubt. But when it comes to deciding what we should actually do in the real world, the inescapable conclusion is that forcing people to do things for their "own good" does not work and leads to more corruption, abuse and misery.

 

[Lentern]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Happiness isn't measurable by any criteria. I cannot look at somebody's status, wealth, health or appearance and guess if they are happy. I like to think if someone says they are happy, then they are happy. Happiness is not universal. Perhaps to you good health means happiness. But are you dooming, say, a cancer sufferer to a life of misery and glum? Or a mentally retarded child? Are they never to be happy by your standards?

I do not have a horrible indifference to human suffering; I do, however, realise that humans do what they do for a reason. I may take away his car and knock down the wall, who's to say he won't slit his wrists and overdose instead? This man is feeling something that is causing him to act out in the way that he does. He can continue doing what he is doing, or he can reach out and get help. I can look at him, offer a helping hand, but I refuse to let anybody force him to do something he does not have the willpower to do.

I refuse to patronise anybody because the more you patronise somebody the lower standards they will strive for.

Of course happiness isn't objective but their are objective indicators which have startling correlations with this undefined phenomenon that is happiness. Good health doesn't equate to happiness to me but i suspect I would be happier if I were healthier. I'm not going to engage in the mental disability argument but I'd be surprised if you could round up a dozen terminal cancer sufferers whom would tell you "I wouldn't have it any other way".

The man in the car faces two possible futures, one is he dies a painful death. The other is he is rescued, sedated, counselled and comes to move past whatever is causing these suicidal tendencies. Libertarian or not the humane thing to do is recognize that not all cries for help are articulated clearly and tragically some are not articulated on time.

By condemning them to react a certain way to patronization you are yourself patronizing them. The difference is I have faith in them to react positively to it, you think they that is beyond them.

 

[loquasagacious]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

If you mean that I would take pleasure in another persons welfare then I don't deny coercion is a hurdle I would happily clear in such a pursuit, even involving grandmothers.

Take pleasure in maximising your concept of another persons welfare, not their concept of it. The other person is by definition already maximising their own welfare, your role is to provide information that they may better make decisions it isn't to make decisions for them.

Very close, I do think that certain people no[sic] better and am not ashamed to admit it. I am part of no minority for believing that if our parliament is any indication. The only charge I deny is that I think I know better rather I think I know someone knows better. Does empowering the academic elite to decide for the plebs open us up to all sorts of corruption problems? Ofcourse it does this is all hypothetical and depends on those at the top having purely benevolent mindsets.

Tip if it is fundamentally flawed in theory then it would be fundamentally flawed in practice. Also refer to the knowledge problem, people have more knowledge about their specific circumstances and peculiarities than governments/technocrats/apparatchiks/academics/etc can therefore individuals are better placed to make decisions for themselves.

Have I lead you to believe I'm against euthanasia? Don't let the catholic thing fool you I'm frequently derided as a heretic by the powers that be. I'm all for euthanasia.

To be honest I haven't followed you on the issue and should have added a caveat to that effect. Apologies.

 

[S.H.O.D.A.N.]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Economic Left/Right: -5.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.59

(Edit: Frankly I don't believe the economic result. I'm essentially a capitalist. Yes, I believe strongly in economic regulation, but usually light regulation, as is largely the case in Australia. Even if a centrally planned economy were economically viable, it would be lacking in certain freedoms, and I would not support it. The quiz seems to consider me economically a socialist because of the large number of caveats and reservations I have with free market economics. But I still support market economics; I certainly don't support large-scale central planning as in socialism or communism.)

Europe has never attained any decent macroeconomic performance indicators, what their natural rate of unemployment is like 9% or something ridiculously high illustrating a rigid and regulated labour market.

Why should we care about macroeconomic indicators for Europe? Wouldn't things like quality of life, happiness, etc be more important, even to a Libertarian?

Macroeconomic indicators might be important for places like China or India where people are still mired in disease, poverty, and discontent. That is not Europe.

Capitalism is a means to an end. That end is happiness and freedom. Libertarians too often forget that. Places like Europe and Australia are positively post-scarcity compared to India or China, and where does a post-scarcity society leave capitalism?

Not to mention how they all survive amongst each other through their common currency, through the help and guidance of the EU FREEING THE TRADE AMONGST MEMBER COUNTRIES (surely not a leftist ideal)

Finally you realise not everything is black and white, nor does it need to be! Europe and Australia take the good parts of socialism and the good parts of capitalism. Kfunk and other 'lefties' such as myself are rarely ever uniform leftists. Most support things like free trade and (regulated) market economies, often strongly.

 

[KFunk]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

economic left/right: -5.75
social libertarian/authoritarian: -5.59

...

Finally you realise not everything is black and white, nor does it need to be! Europe and australia take the good parts of socialism and the good parts of capitalism. Kfunk and other 'lefties' such as myself are rarely ever uniform leftists. Most support things like free trade and (regulated) market economies, often strongly.

<3

 

[Lentern]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Take pleasure in maximising your concept of another persons welfare, not their concept of it. The other person is by definition already maximising their own welfare, your role is to provide information that they may better make decisions it isn't to make decisions for them.

They are doing nothing of the sort. Impulses do not equate to maximization of welfare. Even if people always acted in a way which they thought was going to make them happiest they would still be wrong a great deal of the time but they do not do that. We are strange, illogical, weird creatures and despite our perchance to do them again it does not mean we really want to do the dumb things we do the first time.

Tip if it is fundamentally flawed in theory then it would be fundamentally flawed in practice. Also refer to the knowledge problem, people have more knowledge about their specific circumstances and peculiarities than governments/technocrats/apparatchiks/academics/etc can therefore individuals are better placed to make decisions for themselves.

All theories are fundamentally flawed I was merely conceding that I knew it had its own pitfalls. Perhaps you are deluded enough to believe the anarchist world wouldn't have a hitch but I absolutely disagrees.

I don't agree about the knowledge problem, someone once said to me something to the effect of "experts in Canberra don't know what i want for breakfast." They do know what you'd be well advised to eat for breakfast. But naturally it could not be all encompassing.

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Good health doesn't equate to happiness to me but i suspect I would be happier if I were healthier.

Yes you would almost certainly be happier if you were healthier, all else being equal.

But "all else" is not equal. To get better health you have to sacrifice things like time, money and short term pleasure.

How much of these things should you trade off for how much health?

I don't know. I still wouldn't know if I was a brilliant scientist and philosopher with a 3 PHDs, because I am not you.

Even if people always acted in a way which they thought was going to make them happiest they would still be wrong a great deal of the time but they do not do that. We are strange, illogical, weird creatures and despite our perchance to do them again it does not mean we really want to do the dumb things we do the first time.

So you've pointed out the obvious fact that people make mistakes. Nice work.

Guess what, the politicians and regulators also make mistakes. This pointing out of the friggin' obvious adds nothing to your case.