Who thinks the HSC is unfair? (2 Viewers)

[suling]

lololol 10pm is late for you? what are you, 8? (don't take too much offense, just humouring you)

its late for me lol..if i'm not asleep by then I don't function the next day. This only applies to school days of course..in the holidays I can compensate by sleeping in

XD

 

[noelknows]

i here the BOS is now having everyone use computers in an exam because handwriting has just become so terrible. well this is it for me for the next hour, Black Adder calls!!!!!

That doesn't address the apparent problem of unfairness that 'absorber' was protesting about.
What if some students are faster typers than other?
It's no different.
As for legibility, the markers seem to be managing just fine at the moment. And with computers, what if you used the 'marlett' font, lol.

 

[noelknows]

imo i think you guys are both right and wrong..

i will conceive that there is a level of unfairness with the fact that humanities scale worse than maths and sciences because: someone may be good at humanities but not maths and science and is disadvantaged because his talent is not in the right field..

HOWEVER... it is not the board of studies that says "ok lets just scale this subject relli highly because we feel like it".. scaling works by comparing the scores of students who do a certain subject in comparison to how they perform in other subjects.

for example, say i did legal studies and got 95 but got 80 in maths and physics, that would suggest legal studies is easier than maths and physics and hence maths/physics is scaled more. Now all of you are saying this is bullshit because what if legal was just as difficult as maths/physics but i was just naturally better at legal... BUT, say another student got 95 in maths and physics and legal, this would now suggest that if you are good at maths and physics its likely you will be good at legal

the conclusions may seem bullshit but when you use thousands upon thousands of results, it shows things such as those who excel at maths 4 unit tend to do just as well in all subjects that they do. in doing so, they scale the subjects accordingly e.g. 4 unit maths gets scaled up heaps. Similarly, those who do subjects like aboriginal studies get scaled down heaps because those who do well in aboriginal studies probably dont do very well in other subjects.

So forget what ppl are saying about difficulty or "real" subjects. a perfect hsc would probably be that every student be forced to do every subject imaginable and then work out an atar... however.. since this is impossible.. scaling essentially judges what the student would have gotten in all the subjects he didnt choose... well thats not relli the case but its a way of thinking about it that should remove all the hating going on about scaling.

if it werent for the ppl who did awesome in humanities but then flunked in everything else, humanities wouldnt be scaled so low. if it werent for the guns at phys and chem who also gunned everything else they did, sciences wouldnt be scaled so highly.

sorry for the length of my post.

I forgive you

 

[suling]

That doesn't address the apparent problem of unfairness that 'absorber' was protesting about.
What if some students are faster typers than other?
It's no different.
As for legibility, the markers seem to be managing just fine at the moment. And with computers, what if you used the 'marlett' font, lol.

Also, what if you REALLY detest typing and quite frankly, suck at it. i.e if you are like me

 

[Dragonmaster262]

+1 although I disagree with the highlighted part due to differing intelligence.
It adjusts for the variation in difficulty of many courses.

You are correct but the system isn't perfect and can't take everything into account so for now the differences in intelligence will have to be ignored.

 

[philphie]

its late for me lol..if i'm not asleep by then I don't function the next day. This only applies to school days of course..in the holidays I can compensate by sleeping in

XD

haha you're precious, when it was a school day i'd sleep at around 1am, now i sleep on average 3-4am or not at all, but that's just me, i don't encourage it

 

[kaz1]

i think it's unfair. Seriously 13 years of schooling and all we get is a number.

lol, you're a classic example of how fair the HSC is. This guy did way better than me at school (got better ranks, more academic awards, better reports) but I still got an ATAR 5 points higher than him because I did the high scaling subjects.

 

[philphie]

That doesn't address the apparent problem of unfairness that 'absorber' was protesting about.
What if some students are faster typers than other?
It's no different.
As for legibility, the markers seem to be managing just fine at the moment. And with computers, what if you used the 'marlett' font, lol.

hey, it's not my policy, im just giving a bit of did you know.

 

[jellybelly59]

hrmmm i don't think the system is perfect and every system has its flaws but it's pretty fair. No one has suggested a better system which is remotely practical so....

 

[ajdlinux]

i don't agree with her statement that maths or science have no use in society seeing how they will save us from global warming but i can definitely say i know a lot of maths/science inclined people who actually despise and look down on the arts and humanities.

although i am an exception seeing how i am equally inclined to both but enjoy the humanities much more

Yes, I also know a lot of maths/science people who despise arts and humanities and indeed I do 'despise' a number of arts subjects (I don't think they're completely worthless, but I just suck at them, and there are a few courses which really are worth a bit less than other subjects ).

Looking at the HSC from the perspective of being a formal credential used to assess academic performance, however, the issue isn't an arbitrary measure of 'worth', but rather the objective issue of performance. In this regard, scaling is entirely fair. The students who do Maths Extension 2 usually have great all-round academic ability, which is reflected in scaling, as do the students who do English Extension 2, which is the 3rd highest scaling subject. It's not a judgment of worth, merely an objective measurement of academic performance - and if you do well in humanities and arts, you can still end up with the same scaled scores as if you do well in maths and sciences. Plenty of people get 95+ ATARs without any high-level science or maths.

 

[exiting]

Who thinks the people who think the HSC is unfair are gay?


^refer to above, I for one believe so.

 

[cutemouse]

sorry but not everyone is maths and science orientated.

You should also note that people who are maths or science orientated also tend to suck at English, a compulsory subject.

 

[ajdlinux]

You should also note that people who are maths or science orientated also tend to suck at English, a compulsory subject.

The experience at my school has been that the maths and science people tend to do quite well at English and humanities subjects, but tend to despise them as it's not their primary interest.

 

[noelknows]

I feel my definition of vocational as rather fitting, shouldn't whatever we learn be applied to practical use and contribute to society? if not that, we're being trained to be a bunch of encyclopedias.

have you done modern or ancient history? the assessments require minimal research, if you had a textbook or study guide alone you could get full marks. to suggest extra research is an extra directive, my argument is it should be a requirement. yes the hsc does offer those 'life skills' but its methods? an exam? at the end of they day it comes down to that one hsc exam, what can you reveal then? good memory and clean and fast handwriting.

one good example i can recall was my mate's Physics class. one key assessment was to create something innovative using solar energy, all of them were uninspired, most of them being rechargers. then it come to their hsc exam, great marks. so how would you critique the skills of this particular class? by how well they do in an exam, or how well they did applying their knowledge to practical use?

in my view, the hsc prepares us tp be the best students we can be, but what are the prospects of being a great student? grad school for a lifetime?

I'm not sure about your definition, I think I'll stick with all leading, world-recognised dictionaries.

There is nothing wrong with having some encyclopedia in each of us. I can't believe you'd be so crass as to say that subjects should only fulfil a vocational, "practical use". The very nature of our democracy requires us to be educated, free-thinking citizens. If all our education teaches us is about our career choice and about practicalities, then society has no hope of correcting itself, of moving forward. Ultimately wisdom and learning for the sake of learning will contribute more to society than vocational education.

I did ancient history. My teacher happened to be regarded as one of the best in the state. We did not use a single text book. We did wide research and read prolifically. In my case, and in many others, the HSC offered those 'life-vocational-skills' - or whatever your unusual, definitionally incorrect term is. I do believe that there are so many opportunities outside of the HSC to attain these skills though, meaning the sole burdn need not be on the board of studies.

As Pythagorus (you may have heard of him if you did maths - a subject that does cater for real world application, and teaches it in the HSC) said, "Most men and women, by birth or nature, lack the means to advance in wealth and power, but all have the ability to advance in knowledge." Here, i think, Pythagorus touches on the value and the beauty of learning for the sake of learning, of scholarly knowledge and wisdom, as opposed to vocational subjects like hospitality or early childhood.

Sure good memory and refined hand-writing are bonuses, but you've got to ask yourself, philphie, what is it students are remembering? What is it students are neatly writing? In nearly all successful cases, what they are recalling and reproducing are the fruits of hard labour and hard research. Good memory and good hand-writing are not incompatible with your so-called 'life skills'. You can recall and write absolute trash, but you can equally reproduce content that is researched, reflected on, and refined, in an exam - content prepared with these 'life skills'. Talk to those students with brilliant ATARs, I'm sure they would have employed your 'vocational-life-skills' (or whatever) during their HSC.

As for your mate's physics class, pause for a second, you're getting tangled in your argument. Effectively you're providing an example for the case that practical 'life skills' do exist in HSC subjects - the class had an opportunity to devise something innovative. I'm sorry they produced mainly rechargers. Were you expecting these year 12 students to produce hadron super colliders? This is an isolated example. Perhaps you could attribute their unoriginality to the quality of their teacher, the amount and type of resources they had access to. But questions of originality that you raise are entirely irrelevant to the issue of whether the HSC provides 'vocational-life-skills'. You have just provided an example that it does. They eventually got good marks - well done to them. Your point is? As for their lack of innovation and creativeness, perhaps their eyes needed to be opened, and their minds enlightened, to other forms of solar energy technology if they first had the scholarly knowledge (that I previously spoke about) and wisdom of those forms.

This leads into my final point. You question "what are the prospects of being a great student". As I wrote above, once armed with our scholarly wisdom, we can then, subsequently, apply it to practicalities, careers or vocational skills. Being a good student arms us with the necessary knowledge to function in, and improve, society, to continue our education in university and future career out. Something that your petty practical, good-with-your-hands skills cannot achieve on their own.

 

[-may-cat-]

I never got why people 'despise' other subjects, you can not be good at them or not be interested in them but why does that have to manifest itself into hostility?

 

[noelknows]

haha you're precious, when it was a school day i'd sleep at around 1am, now i sleep on average 3-4am or not at all, but that's just me, i don't encourage it

Yeah Suling. Kevin Rudd has only 3-4 hours of sleep a night. ANd his work load, I'll take a bet, was much larger than yours.

 

[noelknows]

hey, it's not my policy, im just giving a bit of did you know.

Yes I did know, and I do protest, Sir/Madam!

 

[noelknows]

Yes, I also know a lot of maths/science people who despise arts and humanities and indeed I do 'despise' a number of arts subjects (I don't think they're completely worthless, but I just suck at them, and there are a few courses which really are worth a bit less than other subjects ).

Looking at the HSC from the perspective of being a formal credential used to assess academic performance, however, the issue isn't an arbitrary measure of 'worth', but rather the objective issue of performance. In this regard, scaling is entirely fair. The students who do Maths Extension 2 usually have great all-round academic ability, which is reflected in scaling, as do the students who do English Extension 2, which is the 3rd highest scaling subject. It's not a judgment of worth, merely an objective measurement of academic performance - and if you do well in humanities and arts, you can still end up with the same scaled scores as if you do well in maths and sciences. Plenty of people get 95+ ATARs without any high-level science or maths.

Exactly!

 

[Cinnamonster]

Yeah, it was my highest HSC mark and only half of it counted in my ATAR!

Same! Well, it was one of my better marks - third highest out of all of them - and it didn't even count at all I'm kind of thankful I kept General Maths.

 

[jellybelly59]

Yeah Suling. Kevin Rudd has only 3-4 hours of sleep a night. ANd his work load, I'll take a bet, was much larger than yours.

LOL that's not a very good argument considering some think he is asleep on the job but then again those comments should be reserved for NCAP section .