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Who's gonna be unemployed? (1 Viewer)

Frigid

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Degree of disillusion

By Dylan Welch
December 11, 2004
SMH


A higher qualification doesn't guarantee you a job, reports Dylan Welch.

Each year, from March, the big guns come to university campuses. They are representatives of law firms, management consultants, accountants and big business, and they want to attract the best and brightest to their firms.

Over the course of their final year, candidates for graduate programs are whittled down. The ones who are rewarded with a job by November have usually gone through an application process involving group and individual interviews, a barrage of tests and quasi interviews, such as cocktail parties, which are used to gauge an applicant's social skills.

Entry into graduate programs is highly prized. It's seen by many as a fast track to a stellar career: with on-the-job training and other perks such as mentoring and travel.

But what about those who miss out?

Disappointment at rejection is intensified when classmates are boasting of three or four job offers. They see years ahead working with no career path and a wasted degree.

Three months ago, Christine Neufeld graduated from the Law College of NSW after a three-year degree in psychology and a four-year degree in law. She had high hopes of getting a job after graduating but so far success has been elusive. According to Neufeld, she didn't expect the job market to be so competitive and she admits to being naive in thinking she would get a job straight away. "I probably should have started looking long before I graduated," she says. "It's been a big shock to me, definitely a big shock."

She makes ends meet by working in administration at the University of Sydney two days a week and spends the rest of the week job hunting.

She says it takes a full two days to prepare for an interview, which only compounds the disappointment when she misses out. But she says she remains upbeat and positive she'll find work.

The 2003 GradStats, a report on the employment activities of graduating classes in 2002, by the Graduate Careers Council of Australia, shows a levelling-off of jobs for new graduates. It states that 80.1 per cent of 2002's graduates were in full-time employment within four months of completing their degree, a fall of 1.9 per cent on the previous year.

"The market has been flat," says the executive director of the council, Cindy Tilbrook. "We tend to reflect what overseas markets are doing and September 11 caused a dramatic downturn in the graduate market in the US and the same thing happened here."

Nathan Laird, the president of NSW Young Lawyers, says competition for jobs with the big law firms, such as Minter Ellison and Blake Dawson Waldron, is becoming increasingly intense among the 5000 law graduates each year in NSW.

But it's not just law students who are finding the competition fierce.

Adam Antonio enrolled in a bachelor of computer science and technology at the University of Sydney in 1998, during the heady days of the dotcom boom. But by the time he graduated, in 2001, the bubble had burst and there were slim pickings in IT jobs.

"I'd apply for a job and I'd never hear anything about it again," he says. He applied for more than one hundred jobs but got only six interviews. "In the first few months I would ring and ask whether I had progressed to the next stage and a typical response was, 'We had over 600 applicants for this position, we couldn't afford to contact them all, if you haven't been contacted by this stage you can safely assume that you haven't made it."'

In the field of multimedia, Nicole Frost, who graduated with a bachelor of arts from UTS in 2002 has also found the going tough.

To date, she has applied for more than 200 jobs in multimedia, gone through 40 interviews and is becoming resigned to never getting a job in multimedia.

She says by far the worst part of her experience has been the jobs she almost got. "If the interview went badly you knew why you didn't get it," she says. "But there was one job where I got down to the final four and I didn't get hired. That was worse than just getting knocked out in the first round."

Tilbrook says that many undergraduate students can be unprepared for the modern job market, failing to grasp that there is more to landing that dream job than just high distinctions and first-class honours. Academic results are really only the starting point.

"We've been talking to graduate recruiters recently and some of the big graduate recruiters will get five or six thousand applications," she says. "They're looking for things like leadership, or teamwork, communication skills. If a graduate can say, 'I've either worked at McDonald's and I was a shift manager', or 'I was the captain of my netball team and have managed all the events for the team', then that will be held in good stead as a demonstration of some of those other skills."

Graduates should look beyond the glamour of big firms to increase their chances of getting a job. Suburban and country firms take on graduates and can provide them with a strong start.

The manager of the UTS careers service, Malcolm McKenzie, says that despite big firms being the most visible recruiters of graduates, it doesn't mean they represent the wider employer market. "These big employers are only a small proportion of the whole field. We have maybe 100 firms come to campus but many, many more than that recruit our graduates. By all means try for these [large firms] but if you miss out, it's not the end of the world."

McKenzie says students restrict their chances of work by not applying to lots of firms. "One of the things we've seen is students are becoming more selective in their choice of employers. Instead of applying for a wide number of jobs, they tend to restrict themselves to only the four or five that they want."
 

doe

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i reckon finding your first real job is one of the hardest things you'll have to do. make sure you have something to distinguish yourself from the other graduates. marks probably wont be enough. its important not let your job (or what you want your job to be) define you, and have your own sense of identity. that way when you realise you dont really like your job and dont want to be there (and believe me, this day will eventually come), you will have hopefully created a life you can live.

in many ways australia is a small place. theres just not a lot of jobs out there, let alone "good" jobs. nothing really guarentees a job, except family connections. your degree is just a foot in the door, and once you're through the door you'll realise you're at the bottom of what can be a rather large ladder.

graduate recruitment programs are stupid. your looks, gender and economic background will play probably as much a part as your marks if you're to be selected. its sad but i have a strong feeling its true, based on the people ive seen get grad positions at sexy companies.

i have a joke: bob has just graduated from his engineering degree, and to his great joy he lands a role at a local engineering company. He turns up to work for the first day and reports to his manager. the manager says
"Bob, i want you take this broom and sweep up the factory floor".
Bob takes the broom but looks dismayed.
"But ... but im a graduate engineer!".
The manager takes the broom off him
"Sorry bob, i didnt realise ... Now, pay attention, this is how you do it ..."

:p

if you're looking for work, just stick with it and eventually you'll find something. its not all doom and gloom, corporate recruiting is mind boggling.
 

Minai

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If there's anything you can do, its to be more active outside the academic arena. Friends of mine that have gotten graduate/vacation employment at big accounting firms say the key is to "talk talk talk" during interviews, and elaborate on challenging experiences in a time-constraining/team orientated situation which they always ask you.

Hopefully my experiences as a Shift Manager at work and coordinator of the Economics competition will give me enough to talk about
 

§eraphim

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Minai said:
If there's anything you can do, its to be more active outside the academic arena. Friends of mine that have gotten graduate/vacation employment at big accounting firms say the key is to "talk talk talk" during interviews, and elaborate on challenging experiences in a time-constraining/team orientated situation which they always ask you.

Hopefully my experiences as a Shift Manager at work and coordinator of the Economics competition will give me enough to talk about
shift manager at Maccas?
 

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Frigid, I demand that you find and post an article titled something like 'not all doom and gloom in the graduate job market' and which is saturated with experiences of bludgers who managed to easy land their dream job without doing much
 

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Nothing to see here move along.

A lot of time uni graduates are like those who finished Year 12 and think they can get in wherever they want. It just doesn't happen that way for everyone. The whole scene is competitive especially around graduation time when a whole bunch of new people join the market.

It also depends on the job, I wouldn't hire that IT grad to do helpdesk or anything vendor specific and anything I would hire him for he lacks experience in (oh you coded XYZ for 3 years at uni? I found some guy who codes it in his sleep for the past 20 years). I also wouldn't hire the multimedia person for anything more than an assistant until she gained a few years commercial experience.

The paper is nice but not many will get past a very low entry level position to begin with.

It doesn't matter that 80% had jobs within 4 months of graduating, a more telling statistic would be how many had jobs IN THE FIELD THEY WERE EDUCATED IN.
 

Frigid

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what makes me bitter, however, is not the competition, but rather what needs to get past the competition. it seems hard work and good marks, which, to me seem solid indicators of performance, are not as valued as intangible and often subjectively-judged qualities such as social skills, 'enthusiasm' and interaction with the human resource ppl...

seriously, the HR cunts expect us to engage in, if you will excuse the term, 'corporate cocksucking'. yes that fat asian HR bitch i met at ICAA, i'm talking about her.
 

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Frigid said:
what makes me bitter, however, is not the competition, but rather what needs to get past the competition. it seems hard work and good marks, which, to me seem solid indicators of performance, are not as valued as intangible and often subjectively-judged qualities such as social skills, 'enthusiasm' and interaction with the human resource ppl...


In a workplace you never rely 100% on your existing knowledge, showing that you can do well in a test or assignment does not mean you know how to talk to team members or gather support and assistance from other departments. Also if you hit the books 24/7 to get marks good for you, but there is more to life than that. Many companies would love someone who lives in the office all day and lives to work but really those people will usually just be sitting there for their entire career as more balanced and sociable people get promoted because they can make chit chat at the water cooler about various topics.

Being able to converse with others during dinners and other events is also an important area. As an employee you represent your company, if you can not do so in a positvie and friendly fashion then why would that company want you to represent them? Would you like to work with someone who has little to no social skills and as a result is not approachable for anything?

Networking skills are valued very highly in today's corporate culture.

Frigid said:
seriously, the HR cunts expect us to engage in, if you will excuse the term, 'corporate cocksucking'. yes that fat asian HR bitch i met at ICAA, i'm talking about her.
Maybe it was your pleasant disposition? :D
 

Frigid

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LeftrightOut said:
Maybe it was your pleasant disposition? :D
her criticism of me, in a mock interview situation, warranted that comment. besides, i am not "someone who has little to no social skills and as a result is not approachable for anything". i agree that someone who cannot interact with other people should not be hired.

BUT, having said that, I believe the extent to which HR managers place on 'sociability' is far above every other criterion, and as a result you've got these fake-happy bastards who do nothing but socialise at work.

i am not the type of person to be in love with a company, but rather wants to make it succeed by working well in it. the emphasis placed on the former makes me sick.
 
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LeftrightOut

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Frigid said:
her criticism of me, in a mock interview situation, warranted that comment. besides, i am not "someone who has little to no social skills and as a result is not approachable for anything". i agree that someone who cannot interact with other people should not be hired.


Maybe she wanted to see how you faced unwarranted criticism? :)
Nothing like telling someone they suck to see how much they think of themselves and how they handle themselves when under attack.

Frigid said:
BUT, having said that, I believe the extent to which HR managers place on 'sociability' is far above every other criterion, and as a result you've got these fake-happy bastards who do nothing but socialise at work.

i am not the type of person to be in love with a company, but rather wants to make it succeed by working well in it. the emphasis placed on the former makes me sick.
So they told you that you ranked 1st in academic results and relevant prior experience but you just lacked enough social experience and that is the reason you didn't get it? Unless they have said that you shouldn't think that it's only because you weren't sociable enough. There could have been someone smarter in the queue and the panel couldn't be bothered to outline all of the things that didn't get you hired so just picked on something intangible.
 

deviation

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Minai said:
If there's anything you can do, its to be more active outside the academic arena. Friends of mine that have gotten graduate/vacation employment at big accounting firms say the key is to "talk talk talk" during interviews, and elaborate on challenging experiences in a time-constraining/team orientated situation which they always ask you.

Hopefully my experiences as a Shift Manager at work and coordinator of the Economics competition will give me enough to talk about
yeah that is pretty on par dude. I work for pwC and i must say that what we really care about is someone who doesnt just get straight A's at uni or high school but rather someone who displays high levels of social skills and adaptability to teamworking environments. Interviews all come down to how well u hold yourself in a conversation and whether or not your persona fits into our environment.
 

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LeftrightOut said:
Maybe she wanted to see how you faced unwarranted criticism? :)
Nothing like telling someone they suck to see how much they think of themselves and how they handle themselves when under attack.
sick bastards.
Unless they have said that you shouldn't think that it's only because you weren't sociable enough. There could have been someone smarter in the queue and the panel couldn't be bothered to outline all of the things that didn't get you hired so just picked on something intangible.
it was only a mock interview. but her criticisms, such as body posture, how to structure a 'model answer', left me wondering, what is the point of an interview?
 

deviation

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the point of an interview is to see how you present yourself. I am talking about the whole package lol.... it seems absurd but employers don't give a rat's ass about ure fkn comm/law 99.95 UAI record of achievement or HD averages. They want someone who looks smart + good + talks a skitload.
 

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deviation said:
They want someone who looks smart + good + talks a skitload.
your description has me envisaging a good-looking bullshit-artist salesman.
 

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Frigid said:
sick bastards.
It's better to find this out in an interview than once you are hired and on the payroll. They can always not hire someone who they think would be a problem ego wise than deal with it afterwards.

Frigid said:
it was only a mock interview. but her criticisms, such as body posture, how to structure a 'model answer', left me wondering, what is the point of an interview?[/size]
To present yourself in the best manner possible for the position. If you want self righteousness go work for Smith Family or St. Vinnies. the corporate environment is not there for you to feel all warm and fuzzy about yourself. It sounds like she was fairly reasonable, if I had you in an interview and you gave dodgey answers or handled yourself incorrectly I would just shake your hand and send you on your way and strike you off the list. Be happy she told you some tips for future interviews, that is the point of mock interviews, see where you are at and what needs improving.
 

deviation

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Frigid said:
your description has me envisaging a good-looking bullshit-artist salesman.
uhmm yea prety much. The interviewers arent looking for a fkn genius at studies at all. That is the biggest misconception ever. Noone really gives a shit if u studied the hardest in high school + university, in fact its just to determine whether u make the initial cut. All im saying is that u just haf to be able to 'speak in their language' and adopt their personas etc. to become more fitting so-to-speak in the company.
 

LeftrightOut

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Frigid said:
your description has me envisaging a good-looking bullshit-artist salesman.
You don't seem to understand. In an interview YOU ARE SELLING YOURSELF. You are hoping the company you are interviewing for will lease you for a while so you can continue life in the rat race. What did you think interviews were for?
 

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