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Zoe's law - Foetal rights (1 Viewer)

isildurrrr1

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Can't say I agree with that justification for abortion...
what about a woman's right to control her reproductive system? do you know how hard it is for a woman to go through with an abortion? do you know how emotionally distressing it is to make a huge life decision? As the video says women who elect to have abortions will have kids later on in life when they feel they're more capable of raising a child.
 

DannyBoy33

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Perhaps, however, you can't underestimate the idea that a man can also be effected by abortion... for instance, man wants to keep it woman wants to do away with it... this would have an effect on a man... so many complexities
Yeah but the mans situation lacks resentment towards himself. That makes it much easier for him.
 

SylviaB

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What if abortion is the link to crime rates dropping?

[video=youtube;zk6gOeggViw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk6gOeggViw[video]
nah

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/pre-emptive-executions/

what about a woman's right to control her reproductive system?
People opposed to abortion consider it to be quite literally the ending of a human life, so appeals to "controlling her reproductive system" don't really hold a lot of weight.


do you know how hard it is for a woman to go through with an abortion? do you know how emotionally distressing it is to make a huge life decision?
yeah its terrible

 

SylviaB

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the crime argument is hilarious considering that its pushed by liberals

because what its saying is that its good to preemptively kill off poor and, per capita, predominantly black kids before they become criminals

if a conservative were to suggest putting restrictions on poor black women having kids in order to bring down crime rates, in the eyes of these same liberals and the media he would be Hitler 2.0
 

funkshen

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the crime argument is hilarious considering that its pushed by liberals

because what its saying is that its good to preemptively kill off poor and, per capita, predominantly black kids before they become criminals

if a conservative were to suggest putting restrictions on poor black women having kids in order to bring down crime rates, in the eyes of these same liberals and the media he would be Hitler 2.0
i get what you're saying, but letting a woman decide to have an abortion is very different to discriminatory, government restrictions on the reproductive rights of poor black women.
 

SylviaB

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yes of course they're different, but it wasn't an argument from "reproductive rights" he was making, it was an argument from outcomes. The point is that arguing from such a perspective involves some very uncomfortable implications, which if expressed in a different form are considered horrendous

i mean, heck, okay, if a conservative went around simply encouraging black women to get abortions in order to reduce crime, he'd be similarly showered in vitriol
 
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funkshen

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yes of course they're different, but it wasn't an argument from "reproductive rights" he was making, it was an argument from outcomes. The point is that arguing from such a perspective involves some very uncomfortable implications, which if expressed in a different form are considered horrendous

i mean, heck, okay, if a conservative went around simply encouraging black women to get abortions in order to reduce crime, he'd be similarly showered in vitriol
no, you're implying that there is some necessary inconsistency between promoting abortion because it reduces crime, and not promoting discriminatory and coercive restrictions on a woman's choice to reproduce. this is not true.
 

SylviaB

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no, you're implying that there is some necessary inconsistency between promoting abortion because it reduces crime, and not promoting discriminatory and coercive restrictions on a woman's choice to reproduce. this is not true.

i mean, heck, okay, if a conservative went around simply encouraging black women to get abortions in order to reduce crime, he'd be similarly showered in vitriol
 

SylviaB

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i.e. implying that crime will be reduced by getting rid of black males, which is a presupposition of the belief that abortion reduces crime
 

funkshen

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and perhaps rightly so. people would question why he was doing it. a 'liberal' might adduce evidence of abortion reducing crime rates to support the primary argument of bodily autonomy. a 'conservative' might adduce evidence of abortion reducing crime rates because he hates black people, for which said conservative might rightly be showered with vitriol.

let's not forget your first point was about promoting restrictions on reproductive choice, not freedoms.
 

SylviaB

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a 'conservative' might adduce evidence of abortion reducing crime rates because he hates black people, for which said conservative might rightly be showered with vitriol.
he hates black people (partly) because they commit more crime, so the end result is still the same. The fact that wanting less of the people that commit more crime is called hating black people when and only when it comes from conservatives is kind of the point


let's not forget your first point was about promoting restrictions on reproductive choice, not freedoms.

no, my point was that the way liberals react to the proclamation of the benefits of reducing the number of poor black kids varies markedly depending on who it comes from

I mean, forget abortion for a moment. Liberals will get angry (or will downright disagree with you) if you even start talking about the fact that blacks commit more crime. and yet its an assumption that one of their arguments are based on.

and the reason they would be really angry about restricting "reproductive choice" wouldn't even mostly about about that, it would be the "wanting to get rid of black people part". Like I said, they'd be similarly enraged even if it was all just suggestions of voluntary abortions from black women
 
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TylahJane

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Man, this makes me miss legal studies discussions....

I think that the law achieving justice for a mother who had her child taken away from her in utero without her choice is separate from abortion and subsequent laws. The law here, is protecting the mother rights to abort by saying it doesn't apply to a mother who 'consents' to have the child aborted. The main differentiating factor is CHOICE. If a mother has not chosen for her child in utero to be killed then someone must face retribution.
 

funkshen

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he hates black people (partly) because they commit more crime, so the end result is still the same. The fact that wanting less of the people that commit more crime is called hating black people when and only when it comes from conservatives is kind of the point
no it isn't. people do care whether someone's opinions derive from prejudice. you seem to have misinterpreted what i've said, so let me reiterate. this hypothetical conservative is not called black-hating because he encourages black women to have abortions; he encourages black women to have abortions to have abortions because he doesn't like black people. the end result is quite distinct from a liberal who does not hate blacks, and promotes bodily autonomy irrespective of race.

no, my point was that the way liberals react to the proclamation of the benefits of reducing the number of poor black kids varies markedly depending on who it comes from
yes, that was my point as well. it is quite reasonable to prefer to hear arguments for the rights of animals from Peter Singer than it is from Hitler, though both are proponents of such rights. and that's okay.

I mean, forget abortion for a moment. Liberals will get angry (or will downright disagree with you) if you even start talking about the fact that blacks commit more crime. and yet its an assumption that one of their arguments are based on

and the reason they would be really angry about restricting "reproductive choice" wouldn't even mostly about about that, it would be the "wanting to get rid of black people part". Like I said, they'd be similarly enraged even if it was all just suggestions of voluntary abortions from black women
an excellent strawman if ever there was one.
 
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funkshen

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Man, this makes me miss legal studies discussions....

I think that the law achieving justice for a mother who had her child taken away from her in utero without her choice is separate from abortion and subsequent laws. The law here, is protecting the mother rights to abort by saying it doesn't apply to a mother who 'consents' to have the child aborted. The main differentiating factor is CHOICE. If a mother has not chosen for her child in utero to be killed then someone must face retribution.
destruction of a foetus already constitutes an offence
 

funkshen

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Would you be able to show me the act please? :)
the words "an offence" in my post are a hyperlink to the relevant section of the crimes act that defines grievous bodily harm

here is the link: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s4.html#grievous_bodily_harm

if you cause the destruction of a foetus (in a circumstance that would constitute an offence, such as assaulting someone, or in criminal negligence), you have committed an offence. foetuses are already protected by law, regardless of Zoe's Law (which, instead, treats them as a legal person)
 

TylahJane

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the words "an offence" in my post are a hyperlink to the relevant section of the crimes act that defines grievous bodily harm

here is the link: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s4.html#grievous_bodily_harm

if you cause the destruction of a foetus (in a circumstance that would constitute an offence, such as assaulting someone, or in criminal negligence), you have committed an offence. foetuses are already protected by law, regardless of Zoe's Law (which, instead, treats them as a legal person)
Thanks! Will have a look!
 

Crobat

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what about a woman's right to control her reproductive system? do you know how hard it is for a woman to go through with an abortion? do you know how emotionally distressing it is to make a huge life decision? As the video says women who elect to have abortions will have kids later on in life when they feel they're more capable of raising a child.
Hold your horses bro, I'm pro-choice and understand all of those points you raised. I just disagree with that specific justification that crime rates are lowered because that generation was aborted and therefore abortion should be legalised.

Man, this makes me miss legal studies discussions....

I think that the law achieving justice for a mother who had her child taken away from her in utero without her choice is separate from abortion and subsequent laws. The law here, is protecting the mother rights to abort by saying it doesn't apply to a mother who 'consents' to have the child aborted. The main differentiating factor is CHOICE. If a mother has not chosen for her child in utero to be killed then someone must face retribution.
Indeed. But as I said in previous posts, you have to look at the provision in the context of the Act and its purposes to determine the specific function of the law. This law is separate from any law to abort (or not to abort) but could possibly have future impact on the whole debate. Taken away from the context of the Act, the law could be said to protect abortion rights, however, considering the circumstances of its enactment, it stands to give legal rights to unborn foetuses which thus holds the future possibility of criminalising abortion as it could be seen to constitute a crime similar to murder.

the words "an offence" in my post are a hyperlink to the relevant section of the crimes act that defines grievous bodily harm

here is the link: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s4.html#grievous_bodily_harm

if you cause the destruction of a foetus (in a circumstance that would constitute an offence, such as assaulting someone, or in criminal negligence), you have committed an offence. foetuses are already protected by law, regardless of Zoe's Law (which, instead, treats them as a legal person)
Thanks! I had a vague idea that it was already part of the law which is partly why I'm a little confused about this whole law.
 

funkshen

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Thanks! I had a vague idea that it was already part of the law which is partly why I'm a little confused about this whole law.
the new law (Zoe's law) gives legal rights to a foetus (that is, a > 20 week old child in utero is now a 'living person'). under zoe's law, an offender may now be liable for homicide of a foetus, as distinct from destruction of a foetus as harm to the mother (the current state of the law).

i'm not sure but my intuition leads me to believe that a mother may now be liable for murder/manslaughter of her foetus.

as far as i am aware, there is currently no deficiency in the criminal justice system regarding anyone getting away with killing foetuses, and Zoe's law is another example of absurd legislation that specifically criminalises acts that are already criminal.
 

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