Some are born gay, some achieve gayness, and some have gayness thrust upon them (5 Viewers)

[Iron]

Because I think that it's fine to say that you dont know if there's a God, but to claim some sort of superiority by pretending that it's impossible to 'believe' because it's outside the bounds of some limited mechanical reason is pathetic and denies the fullness of our mysterious humanity

 

[S.H.O.D.A.N.]

What is it for me? The desire for social egalitarianism and a harmonious, intelligent, rational society.

Secular humanism: Free inquiry as opposed to censorship and imposition of belief; Separation of church and state; the ideal of freedom from religious control and from jingoistic government control; ethics based on critical intelligence rather than that deduced from religious belief; moral education; religious skepticism; reason; a belief in science and technology as the best way of understanding the world; evolution; and education as the essential method of building humane, free, and democratic societies.

This is the basic impetus. It isn't a commandment from God. Nor do I need divine commandment to act thoughtfully.

Excellent and insightful post.

 

[S.H.O.D.A.N.]

Because I think that it's fine to say that you dont know if there's a God, but to claim some sort of superiority by pretending that it's impossible to 'believe' because it's outside the bounds of some limited mechanical reason is pathetic and denies the fullness of our mysterious humanity

I was being facetious, because I really don't care about that little debate. For all intents and purposes, God does not exist to me, but technically speaking I'd be an agnostic (more in the sense that what caused the universe is unknown, rather than fence-sitting on whether or not a god exists).

 

[Iron]

I was being facetious,).

Hahaha and here I was wondering whether I should try and slug you with all my anti-Greenery ^V^

edit: thought you were talking about the Jules post!

 

[S.H.O.D.A.N.]

Hahaha and here I was wondering whether I should try and slug you with all my anti-Greenery ^V^

edit: thought you were talking about the Jules post!

Besides the secular aspect of Humanism, surely you can identify strongly with the emphasis on social egalitarianism? That's the foundation of Australia and Catholicism alike.

 

[Iron]

Besides the secular aspect of Humanism, surely you can identify strongly with the emphasis on social egalitarianism? That's the foundation of Australia and Catholicism alike.

Ofc I empathise with it, but i'm sort of suspicious and lol at how you can justify things like this without God. If it's just you in the world, forging ahead, taking what you can, how is it really in your interests to care for the welfare of others? How can you claim that others have a universal right to be treated at some basic humane standard - perhaps at your own expense? Life - your life - simply must be about cruel and unthinking power - how to get it, keep it and use it to your own advantage. The honest athiest will recognise and accept this
This is what my original question was getting at.

 

[S.H.O.D.A.N.]

Ofc I empathise with it, but i'm sort of suspicious and lol at how you can justify things like this without God. If it's just you in the world, forging ahead, taking what you can, how is it really in your interests to care for the welfare of others? How can you claim that others have a universal right to be treated at some basic humane standard - perhaps at your own expense? Life - your life - simply must be about cruel and unthinking power - how to get it, keep it and use it to your own advantage. The honest athiest will recognise and accept this
This is what my original question was getting at.

You seem to be forgetting that evolution has programmed humans to be idealistic because it's a survival trait.

I reject your premise that, rationally speaking, humans must be cruel and power-hungry in the absence of god. You dirty pseudo-Objectivist!

 

[Iron]

You seem to be forgetting that evolution has programmed humans to be idealistic because it's a survival trait.

I reject your premise that, rationally speaking, humans must be cruel and power-hungry in the absence of god. You dirty pseudo-Objectivist!

So you would say that humanist values are simply biological? Some iron science which cannot be suppressed or denied by the mere fleshy nude man?
I mean, even here the Christian insists that we're good at our core and have a conscience which tells us, however faintly, the difference between good and evil and a sense, however dim, that life is all about loving others. Is this where we come together?
I'm not satisfied

 

[jules.09]

Ofc I empathise with it, but i'm sort of suspicious and lol at how you can justify things like this without God. If it's just you in the world, forging ahead, taking what you can, how is it really in your interests to care for the welfare of others? How can you claim that others have a universal right to be treated at some basic humane standard - perhaps at your own expense? Life - your life - simply must be about cruel and unthinking power - how to get it, keep it and use it to your own advantage. The honest athiest will recognise and accept this
This is what my original question was getting at.

Yes I genuinely believe that you can justify these things without god, e.g. Aung San Suu Kyi.

People do sacrifice their livelihood in the name of justice, and they are not motivated/willed by any divine creator, it is simply their personal beliefs.

You seem to be forgetting that evolution has programmed humans to be idealistic because it's a survival trait.

I reject your premise that, rationally speaking, humans must be cruel and power-hungry in the absence of god. You dirty pseudo-Objectivist!

Agreed. Unless of course, Iron is a proponent of 'intelligent design', haha.

 

[Garygaz]

You seem to be forgetting that evolution has programmed humans to be idealistic because it's a survival trait.

I reject your premise that, rationally speaking, humans must be cruel and power-hungry in the absence of god. You dirty pseudo-Objectivist!

Do you think if today (somehow, hypothetically) the whole world came to possess the knowledge that there was no after life and no God, the world would change a lot? I do. I think shit would get real and a lot of people who's lives are held together by a belief in God would do a lot of stupid things, people would lose self worth and the will to live.

 

[jules.09]

Do you think if today (somehow, hypothetically) the whole world came to possess the knowledge that there was no after life and no God, the world would change a lot? I do. I think shit would get real and a lot of people who's lives are held together by a belief in God would do a lot of stupid things, people would lose self worth and the will to live.

That's possible but, the issue there is the fact that people have held onto something that has been false all their life. If the above hypothetical were true, that is. We need to dispel illusion in order to attain enlightenment of our condition; isn't this the case with everything?

At any rate, there are many people who believe in their own personal gods and have their own theories about the afterlife i.e. speculation etc. You're only narrowing the scope to organised religion, seemingly.

 

[Tangent]

That's possible but, the issue there is the fact that people have held onto something that has been false all their life. If the above hypothetical were true, that is. We need to dispel illusion in order to attain enlightenment of our condition; isn't this the case with everything?

At any rate, there are many people who believe in their own personal gods and have their own theories about the afterlife i.e. speculation etc. You're only narrowing the scope to organised religion, seemingly.

It wouldnt matter if what someone believed was false or not.

If people believe, then to a certain extent it does become real, doesnt it? Whether or not what they believe in is real or true, the affects are the same.

For example, if a kid was in bed, and they are trying to get to sleep, but then they hear something. They open there eyes to try and see something, but they cant see. There are little creaks, their imagination does the rest... although there may be nothing in the dark, the affects are the same if there was something there.

p.s. using "they" as a broad term, encompassing everyone in the world, as this can apply to anyone about any form of belief.

 

[Tangent]

The effect is the cause?

yesh, and amputees are amputees because they act like people who have lost a limb......

/whack

 

[Iron]

The effect is the cause?

yesh, and amputees are amputees because they act like people who have lost a limb......

/whack

When will you people stop treating this as a physical condition that cannot be resisted at all? You may have a tendency to do this or that, but at the end of the day there is a clear moral choice involved

 

[Tangent]

I'm exercising my morals. It's not like i make out with every guy i see. Actually im more controlled than most heterosexual peoples =P. You know, i didnt have my first kiss til these holidays just gone? This is because i used to repress my sexuality, i actually liked a girl, but i was depressed, had low self esteem. I didnt really like her because i wanted to, i liked her because i gave myself no alternative- there wasnt even any physical attraction, it was just emotional.

It wasnt until a few years later that i was accepting myself, and i actually fell for a guy. I thought that if this is who i am, this is who i am. I cannot repress it, no matter how hard i try, and i dont want to repress it. I started feeling better about myself, and everyone made me feel normal when i told them, more normal than i felt pretending to be heterosexual.

The problem is that only i know how i feel, though i know if anyone else was in my shoes they'd do the same, either that or kill themselves (which is also a sin, so noone seems to be able to win).

 

[Iron]

Young man, you didnt accept anyone but Satan. Our Lord, Christ Jesus knows you more than yourself and weeps at your weakness

 

[SnowFox]

And when someone doesnt believe in a false entity, who do they condemn themselves to?

 

[Tangent]

I found a dimpled spider, fat and white,
On a white heal-all, holding up a moth
Like a white piece of rigid satin cloth--
Assorted characters of death and blight
Mixed ready to begin the morning right,
Like the ingredients of a witches' broth--
A snow-drop spider, a flower like a froth,
And dead wings carried like a paper kite.

What had that flower to do with being white,
The wayside blue and innocent heal-all?

What brought the kindred spider to that height,
Then steered the white moth thither in the night?
What but design of darkness to appall?--
If design govern in a thing so small.
-Robert Frost


Is god really all that "good" then, if he makes me feel the way i do? Its easy to label all bad things the work of the devil and all good things the work of god, just because a book written a few thousand years ago, with bits chucked in along the way tells you what to believe.

Well seems that i have been shunned by so many religions then i will believe what i want, as i think everyone is entitled to believe what they want. In the end i think that everyone should do what makes them happiest, aslong as they dont hurt anyone else. Life is here for us to enjoy, for us to make meaningful.

 

[Iron]

IWell seems that i have been shunned by so many religions then i will believe what i want, as i think everyone is entitled to believe what they want. In the end i think that everyone should do what makes them happiest, aslong as they dont hurt anyone else. Life is here for us to enjoy, for us to make meaningful.

Youre hurting me and all 1billionChristians at least. Probably 99% of the world.

You cant define what is "good" by what makes you "happy". Cant you see the selfishness and ego in that?
The good must be beyond yourself and, yes, maybe it is difficult and painful to live up to. This doesnt make it any less good, young man

 

[Tangent]

I never said it was good, nor do i now. It is what it is. Good and evil are points of views.
Is it really selfishness, wanting to be happy? As long as you are not hurting anyone else i dont see it that way.

How am i hurting you? 99% of the world is abit of an exaggeration isnt it? You'd think that atleast 20% would be below the age of 10