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Some are born gay, some achieve gayness, and some have gayness thrust upon them (2 Viewers)

Iron

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I just personally think the whole concept an afterlife is the main problem. This is a superstitious ancient belief which has creeped into modern day. It is nothing to do with the other tenets of religion- loving other people etc It only has a self-serving agenda and it is greedy to think we should have more then this precious life.

Living for the afterlife is the most irrational and dangerous thing one can do and the source of all problems. It creates two realities; one not proven. It degrades the importance of this life and spits on this notion that we can be happy and should be even grateful to be alive, given the probability. To take this life for granted and be wishful enough to think that an eternal one will be given is illogical but most of all, asking for way too much.
Not at all! Our faith and hope takes nothing away, but definitely adds something that wasnt there before. It is in hope and expectation that we transform our lives in ways that give us an immense strength and will to spread love in the world. It is somethign that we are/should be prepared to die for, if need be.
Our anticipation and conviction of an external truth, of a loving and merciful creator gives us a boldness that we would never have had, had we defined the world specifically around our own existence.
 

kami

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Should there not be a "Religion and Sexuality" thread for this?
 

Iron

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Oh yes, they are all good things. But its simply the allegorical spirit for me anyway of his message. Since I don't believe in the infallibility of the Bible, I know that it was written by men and accounts are not going to be perfect, nor is the character of Christ. What I'm getting at though, is that atheist or theist, there is power in the image of Christ. I don't deny this. Look up "dawkins atheism for Jesus." But this is also true of any moral figure- thats probably why I prefer the Buddha (no divine claims either) and he is basically the same as Christ and Krishna (a lot of scholars draw huge similarities, to the point where Christ may have been influenced by the Buddha). But yea, I don't think there is a whole lot more to say on the matter. I'll throw this out there though, Mohammed surprises me. I find nothing inspiring in his life/teachings, as I do in Christ/Buddha etc. It amazes me how a religion grew out of his story really, yet does not at all surprise me that his religion has become the most violent threat to modern society.

Having said it all, I do also entertain the idea that pure altruism IMO does not seem possible and I think that is the reason why Christians must of thought Christ was not human. Of course, I think he was and the stories are fallible, but you can learn a lot from fiction- true or not, when we are discussing moral theoreticals, it matters little. What kind of world would we have you must ask if everyone did act like the biblical jesus? Its easy to say perfect, but I'm weary. I think we need that spice of 'evil'- the world would become stagnant with only love. What problems would there be to help people through? Life would be reduced to a boring and ultimately meaningless bliss. And then there is the realistic implications of acting "christ" like. It did get him killed, and in a world where materialistically we know the strongest survive, I'm not sure that pure christianity would be good for the survival of the species.
I dont think you need to worry about that. We are all tempted, constantly and seriously. I like the analogy our Archbishop once gave, when he said that the fall of man is to be taken very personally - especially through adolesence; it's as it our whole world collapses and rebuilding it takes a good decade at least. The Bible is not 'once upon a time'; it is our life.
Love, though stronger than death, will not finally prevail until the second coming.
 

Choklit Milk

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Sorry for the late reply been caught up studying.

You don't need to why to know the what, don't feel like you need to justify yourself, dude. You like guys - would knowing why you are gay in the first place change that? And if it did ... does it really need to be changed? It might be more expedient to just accept yourself.
Thank you for the words and I understand what you are saying. I do tolerate myself and I would tolerate my own homosexuality but I can't accept it until I know its a real part of me.

I guess its something I'll have to work on in time, or conversely leave it be and hope it becomes clear to me outside the sheltered life of high school.

Until then, reading Iron's posts can nullify my sexual urges more efficiently than a liquid nitrogen shower!
 

jules.09

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Dont look at me, look at history. Point me to a perfect society, point me to a major political movement promising utopia which hasnt ended in disaster and appauling tragedy. Point me to an individual who wouldnt engage in any number of evil crimes against their fellow man if they didnt have the thin barrier of the state and judging eyes of the society just holding them back...
I'm on solid ground here, even on secular terms. Man, left to himself, without a strong state, cohesive society and belief in God, will not love his fellow man, but will seek his own benifit regardless of the cost to those around him.


Your argument is contradictory. You're asking me, for the utopian world that secularists have envisioned, yet you cannot provide your own version. Your claim or belief in an afterlife is not substantial. Just because we have yet to achieve this social state, does not mean that we should give up, so to speak, and seek solace in your idea of religion. Just because we have yet to achieve this state, doesn't mean that your 'transcendental' mode should be resorted to. We fight on the basis of rationalism, not false hopes. Our concerns should be entrenched in the present.

There are many individuals globally, who act out of compassion, irrespective of religious and governmental institutions. People who do not believe in God, can lead equally moral lives and contribute to society in profound ways. I do not need to list these individuals; they may be prominent Nobel Peace laureates, or people who shy from the lens of the media. Ordinary people. They aren't full of theological rhetoric, their actions affect change and help others.

To address your passing reference to modern dictators. People like Mao, Stalin and Hitler, alleged atheists, on the otherhand, really screwed up. This however, does not necessarily mean they are representative of all atheists and secularists, nor is evil the causation of atheism. They were responsible for a lot of recent bloodshed which has been impressed in our modern psyche, but what of the Crusades? What of the cultural imperialism in Africa and the Christian mission camps that were set up to convert the indigenous population at large? What of the civil warfare in Beirut? What of the sexual abuse revelations that scandalised the Church? Regardless of what denomination these people pertained to, they were capable of evil intention.


Your visions are grandiose, and although we have grand challenges threatening our future, we should not evade the problem by seeking solace in 'happy thoughts' of promised paradise. This is extremely egocentric, if not purely naive. The anecdote to the existing condition is recognition of secular truth, self discipline and an altruistic drive. This does not derive from any said 'transcendental' literature, in the form of religion. The basic tenets of any world religion, is common to all 'human morality' anyway.

This being said, I don't see how your worldview is superior. The only trial that we face is our mind; the only redemption, ourselves.

If anything, I’m becoming increasingly interested in how you would fix the world’s current situation. I’m not sure proselyting to Catholicism, perusal of the Bible, lack of contraception, denial of homosexuality and utterance of “Christ is our Saviour!” will alleviate the state of society, realistically. To be precise, Christ has become a literary metonym for “rainbows and awesomely divine happiness promised in the afterlife” in theological debates. This has been established as a theological axiom for all debates of this nature, but is simultaneously one of the predominant, logical flaws undermining your argument.

Although I am admittedly an atheist, I am contented to say that I have many religiously devout friends, and hold them in very high regard. They are not quite as restrictive as you are, and by restrictive, I am saying that you have pseudo-Puritanical ambitions. I do respect you, but I believe you to be quite misinformed about many pragmatic issues facing human civilisation today.
 

Tangent

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Would it be acceptable if a homosexual guy forced himself to marry a woman. What if he lied to her at the altar as he married her, what if he lied to her everyday of his life. He would always feel miserable, and would grow bitter. What about the children? Would he have to force himself to concieve a child, just to please someone else?
What kind of life is that?

There is no way to deny these urges, just as there is not way for a heteosexual male to turn homosexual. They can act, but it does not change what is happening underneath it all.
 

Iron

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Your argument is contradictory. You're asking me, for the utopian world that secularists have envisioned, yet you cannot provide your own version. Your claim or belief in an afterlife is not substantial. Just because we have yet to achieve this social state, does not mean that we should give up, so to speak, and seek solace in your idea of religion. Just because we have yet to achieve this state, doesn't mean that your 'transcendental' mode should be resorted to. We fight on the basis of rationalism, not false hopes. Our concerns should be entrenched in the present.

There are many individuals globally, who act out of compassion, irrespective of religious and governmental institutions. People who do not believe in God, can lead equally moral lives and contribute to society in profound ways. I do not need to list these individuals; they may be prominent Nobel Peace laureates, or people who shy from the lens of the media. Ordinary people. They aren't full of theological rhetoric, their actions affect change and help others.

To address your passing reference to modern dictators. People like Mao, Stalin and Hitler, alleged atheists, on the otherhand, really screwed up. This however, does not necessarily mean they are representative of all atheists and secularists, nor is evil the causation of atheism. They were responsible for a lot of recent bloodshed which has been impressed in our modern psyche, but what of the Crusades? What of the cultural imperialism in Africa and the Christian mission camps that were set up to convert the indigenous population at large? What of the civil warfare in Beirut? What of the sexual abuse revelations that scandalised the Church? Regardless of what denomination these people pertained to, they were capable of evil intention.


Your visions are grandiose, and although we have grand challenges threatening our future, we should not evade the problem by seeking solace in 'happy thoughts' of promised paradise. This is extremely egocentric, if not purely naive. The anecdote to the existing condition is recognition of secular truth, self discipline and an altruistic drive. This does not derive from any said 'transcendental' literature, in the form of religion. The basic tenets of any world religion, is common to all 'human morality' anyway.

This being said, I don't see how your worldview is superior. The only trial that we face is our mind; the only redemption, ourselves.

If anything, I’m becoming increasingly interested in how you would fix the world’s current situation. I’m not sure proselyting to Catholicism, perusal of the Bible, lack of contraception, denial of homosexuality and utterance of “Christ is our Saviour!” will alleviate the state of society, realistically. To be precise, Christ has become a literary metonym for “rainbows and awesomely divine happiness promised in the afterlife” in theological debates. This has been established as a theological axiom for all debates of this nature, but is simultaneously one of the predominant, logical flaws undermining your argument.

Although I am admittedly an atheist, I am contented to say that I have many religiously devout friends, and hold them in very high regard. They are not quite as restrictive as you are, and by restrictive, I am saying that you have pseudo-Puritanical ambitions. I do respect you, but I believe you to be quite misinformed about many pragmatic issues facing human civilisation today.
We dont give up either dude. We constantly strive to make this a more loving world through the families we raise, and a more just work in the work that we do. This is why we make such a deal about being saved by works and not faith alone. For us, working to build a better world is a commandment from God. What is it for you?
 

jules.09

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We dont give up either dude. We constantly strive to make this a more loving world through the families we raise, and a more just work in the work that we do. This is why we make such a deal about being saved by works and not faith alone. For us, working to build a better world is a commandment from God. What is it for you?
What is it for me? The desire for social egalitarianism and a harmonious, intelligent, rational society.

Secular humanism: Free inquiry as opposed to censorship and imposition of belief; Separation of church and state; the ideal of freedom from religious control and from jingoistic government control; ethics based on critical intelligence rather than that deduced from religious belief; moral education; religious skepticism; reason; a belief in science and technology as the best way of understanding the world; evolution; and education as the essential method of building humane, free, and democratic societies.

This is the basic impetus. It isn't a commandment from God. Nor do I need divine commandment to act thoughtfully.
 

Iron

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So you seek to build a better world because... you want a better world?
Dig deeper son. The answer will shock you
 

Tully B.

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How is faith a choice? Because it's something that cannot be satisfied by earthly reason? Is that good enough for you? Because it's only something we vaguely feel aware of, but cant articulate by ourselves?
Ofc my faith could slip, ofc some trial may overwhelm my conviction if i'm not careful. God is immensly respectful of our freedom and would never deny me this choice. You have to work at it, you have to keep it alive and grounded in your actual life and daily activities, you have to surround yourself with good Christians who you can fall back on and they on you. It's not just a sunday thing.
Your faith could slip, yes, but I don't think it would be of your own free will that this would occur. I mean, I've listened to a lot people (mostly my friends) talk about God, and I've got more than a couple who're trying to convert me. I listen to them all openly. But, nevertheless, I cannot force myself into believing in God any more than I can force myself to believe that my computer is a banana.

So you seek to build a better world because... you want a better world?
Dig deeper son. The answer will shock you
I think that's a lot better than wanting a better world just because God said you should.

On a different note, is anyone aware of a religion that believes in an imperfect God, who is responsible for both the good and evil?
 

SylviaB

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Batshit insane Christian: "People aren't born gay! They choose to be gay!"

Me: "Oh, so that would mean you chose your sexuality also? That you weren't born heterosexual? Interesting!"

Christian: "OMFG you are so sinful accept Jesus wahhhhh".
 

kami

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Sorry for the late reply been caught up studying.



Thank you for the words and I understand what you are saying. I do tolerate myself and I would tolerate my own homosexuality but I can't accept it until I know its a real part of me.

I guess its something I'll have to work on in time, or conversely leave it be and hope it becomes clear to me outside the sheltered life of high school.

Until then, reading Iron's posts can nullify my sexual urges more efficiently than a liquid nitrogen shower!
As long as you feel it then it's real enough. :)

There are also a number of youth organisation for LGBT people for you to get out there and understand what all of this means. You should seriously take a look into it, there'll be one in your area.
 

jules.09

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On a different note, is anyone aware of a religion that believes in an imperfect God, who is responsible for both the good and evil?
Haha, I think we call that religion narcissism. 'Worship thyself'. :D

But yeah, I think we need to think for ourselves, not be motivated to act in a certain way because some alleged divine creator commanded us to, out of fear.
 

zazzy1234

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Haha, I think we call that religion narcissism. 'Worship thyself'. :D

But yeah, I think we need to think for ourselves, not be motivated to act in a certain way because some alleged divine creator commanded us to, out of fear.
wat a shit thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

being gay is a $%%^^ up choice dat shit people make due 2 da shit society around em. It ain't noooooooooooooo genetcally thing coz den it wouldn't be against ma religon 2 b a retard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Iron

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Your faith could slip, yes, but I don't think it would be of your own free will that this would occur. I mean, I've listened to a lot people (mostly my friends) talk about God, and I've got more than a couple who're trying to convert me. I listen to them all openly. But, nevertheless, I cannot force myself into believing in God any more than I can force myself to believe that my computer is a banana.



I think that's a lot better than wanting a better world just because God said you should.

On a different note, is anyone aware of a religion that believes in an imperfect God, who is responsible for both the good and evil?
Lol ok. So you have this notion that you happen to have been born of a particular intelligence that can never 'believe in' God? Because there's 'no evidence'? 'I'm sorry Lord, but my hands are tied'??? That's pathetic. Youre pathetic. The whole phoney outfit is pathetic.
I always lol at this supposed superiority certain atheists adopt.

Also, it's possible for man to want the same things as God - shock horror
 

Tully B.

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I wasn't saying that it was because I'm more intelligent that I don't believe in God. I was merely trying to illustrate that faith, just like any type of belief (faith is just a combination of trust and belief, right?), is not a choice. I can try my hardest to get the facts, but even if it is, as you say, right in front of my face, blindingly obvious, the fact that I don't believe in it is not due to my lack of will to do so.

Even if you don't agree, I don't see how this view can be classified as "pathetic".
 

Iron

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I wasn't saying that it was because I'm more intelligent that I don't believe in God. I was merely trying to illustrate that faith, just like any type of belief (faith is just a combination of trust and belief, right?), is not a choice. I can try my hardest to get the facts, but even if it is, as you say, right in front of my face, blindingly obvious, the fact that I don't believe in it is not due to my lack of will to do so.

Even if you don't agree, I don't see how this view can be classified as "pathetic".
It's always due to your lack of will. To pretend that faith is a choice that you simply cannot make just stems from your equally irrational conviction that there is no God.

OT guys, OT
 

S.H.O.D.A.N.

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It's always due to your lack of will. To pretend that faith is a choice that you simply cannot make just stems from your equally irrational conviction that there is no God.

OT guys, OT
But clearly the irrational thing is belief in a god, so how can you say that? :confused:
 

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