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Does God exist? (6 Viewers)

do you believe in god?


  • Total voters
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Iron

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Dearest Lukybear,

you mention the apostles, but i was more interested in hearing about modern day 'prophets' and religious bigwigs capable of leading populations and tearing open seas as it were.

if certain values are 'time immemorial' then why do we need the Church to mandate them? The 'truths of Christianity', to respect your family, to love your wife, not to murder or steal etc. aren't exclusive to Christianity either - we can date 'truths' such as this farther into antiquity (for example, marriage being a pre-Mesopotanian tradition, or general commandments documented in the Torah).

but the Pope is the closest human being do god in the modern age. to deny this would be to deny your faith, right? the occassional pope's propensity to such vulgar sin must imply a mistake on the behalf of his creator.



well, i don't have much to say about that, though I will say that many of your own fellow believers would disagree. are they wrong and you right?

xoxo
Luky's a Prot. The point was that all men, regardless of time or place, have the same moral law on their hearts, which tells them that love is good and to be given. This is the spring of our humanity and 'sound moral judgement'!

Dont know what youre talking about re the Pope!
weirdo.
 

warezfan

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I am sure GOD exist!

Jesus have shown us the power of GOD by providing us with the kingdom of heaven. Even the Jewish bible, book of Micah predicted the coming of Jesus in the Holy city Bethlehem and the stars converged on the birth of Jesus at Bethlehem according to Matthew's Gospel. Clearly this is the work of GOD, sending his ONLY son to earth to rule from above.

The only judgment one will receive is from GOD himself and no one else. You can say whether something is moral or not all you want, but it has no merits, the only morality is the ten commandments and the teaching of the HOLY BIBLE. We are all sinners and must thank GOD for sacrificing his son, the lord of Jesus Christ, to save our souls.

Thank you GOD!
 

em9c

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Quick question..

I hear about everyone thanking God for giving his only child, Jesus Christ away, to pay for our sins.

So WHAT IF Jesus was NOT crucified. What if God didn't give away his only son?
 

Riet

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Quick question..

I hear about everyone thanking God for giving his only child, Jesus Christ away, to pay for our sins.

So WHAT IF Jesus was NOT crucified. What if God didn't give away his only son?
See: Islam or Judaism
 

Smile_Time351

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I am sure GOD exist!

Jesus have shown us the power of GOD by providing us with the kingdom of heaven. Even the Jewish bible, book of Micah predicted the coming of Jesus in the Holy city Bethlehem and the stars converged on the birth of Jesus at Bethlehem according to Matthew's Gospel. Clearly this is the work of GOD, sending his ONLY son to earth to rule from above.

The only judgment one will receive is from GOD himself and no one else. You can say whether something is moral or not all you want, but it has no merits, the only morality is the ten commandments and the teaching of the HOLY BIBLE. We are all sinners and must thank GOD for sacrificing his son, the lord of Jesus Christ, to save our souls.

Thank you GOD!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHA...HAHA...HA..HA..HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.HA...HA..HA..HA... Oh man, seriously though, do you honestly believe what you just posted? Does anyone HONESTLY believe this crap? I'm now convinced that all religion is is a practical joke. You make it sound like a religion is something people think of after a night out drinking. "Hah.. guys, sherioushly, I've got a great idea... letsh make a relishion with thish guy named jeshush!! It'll be great!"

So, if it is all a joke, let me know, because you guys are comic geniuses.
 

Cookie182

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That's exactly my point, you can't use our rationale of that being lazy to try and figure the logic of something infinitely intelligent/powerful. What would have been a viable alternative? Mega powerful human beings who control the universe around us with our thoughts?

Also, philosophical question of, 'what created space?'
The most fucked-up reasoning I have ever heard.

Read up on presuppositionalism. Get rid of it. Then debate :)
 

Cookie182

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I'm still waiting for someone, particularly a Bible literalist (not Iron) who doesn't look past details and simplify Christianity to love, to give a good response to the Apathetic God Paradox.

Lots of Prots give god all these cuddly qualities of omnipotence/omniscience etc

There is consequentiality when you describe this entity: little do you realise, the more you do this, the more you destroy any chance of the 'god' you aptly describe existing at all.

Why?

The problem of motivation. You guys think of god in human ways- that he listens to your prayers, has infinite knowledge and love. Therefore, it is not acceptable to argue against him possessing other qualities like motivation.

How do we get motivated? Simply, due to limits. When we live under a limited framework (i.e. asymmetric information, time etc), we prioritise our resources to best meet our needs (given rationality). Limits drive our motivation to seek knowledge, to seek love, emotional fulfilment.

A characteristic of omnipotence/omniscience is that the entity is limitless- all-knowing, all-possessing, for eternity. Therefore, god has everything he ever needs internally, given he knows future outcomes; no external event is ever needed to satisfy a limitless entity. All knowledge, love, emotional fulfillment resides within him. By definition, god would have no motivation. Infinite apathy.

Without motivation, this apathetic entity would create nothing. This is a necessary consequence of your definitions.

Warning: the worst rebuttal I have ever heard is: "Oh, but he allowed himself to selectively not know about creation, give free will to us, so he seeks this...". Your back-trotting on your beloved god-concept of perfection. Also, to do so would be a logical fallacy, as to do that, he would need to know everything in the first place. Therefore, he would never have the motivation to remove this 'selected knowledge' :)

...The Christian will then usually go "how dare you assume to know his mind?...". Refer them back to the statement of rebuttal that they just made. Christianity is conceptually built upon humanistic presumptions of god's qualities. As soon as you even use the word "him"; the process of definition begins...and logical destruction follows.
 
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Iron

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But surely we only think of God as human to the extent that we were made in His image and His son was made man for our redemption. Beyond that we dont know squat about His qualities and emotions, beyond Love, Truth, Goodness and Beauty...

So I would reject the idea that His motivation is a 'human' one which is illogical because He was already in a state of total perfection. It seems pointless to try and 'catch' God in a human net, but by all means continue with your tower of Babel :eek:
 

Cookie182

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Also:

Why the fuck would anyone ever want to live under an eternal dictatorship? Submit to being watched, 24/7, forever. Even taking a shit. It’s Big Brother to the extreme, people. Presuming it exists, nothing says you can't get "kicked out" of heaven. If life is a constant struggle against sin, why would it be any different? The Biblical story of Lucifer is a perfect example. The all-loving god kicks his kids out of the house if they get naughty. You will live in servitude for eternity. How do you know you will ever meet him, given you get there? This could be an exclusive monarchy where you get a wave from a distance once a year at a parade; otherwise you serve your direct superiors (angels) constantly?

If you really do accept the after-life notion in its entirety, these are the questions you must conceptualise (notice how stupid it sounds!).

Personally, I think the greatest spiritual attainment (for a self-actualised organism) is doing good in this life, maximising emotional connections with other creatures and leaving your mark in any way you can. That way, upon your deathbed you can look forward to true retirement...being left in peace for eternity (don’t worry, you wont miss your love one’s- your not conscious).
 

Cookie182

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But surely we only think of God as human to the extent that we were made in His image and His son was made man for our redemption. Beyond that we dont know squat about His qualities and emotions, beyond Love, Truth, Goodness and Beauty...

So I would reject the idea that His motivation is a 'human' one which is illogical because He was already in a state of total perfection. It seems pointless to try and 'catch' God in a human net, but by all means continue with your tower of Babel :eek:
In other words you have no answer.

I specifically asked you not to bother answering anyway- you always come around to simplification. Its simply a synonym for love for you. However, there are millions of evangelicals who very much believe in the god I described.

Also, as you say- a state of perfection. The necessary consequence would be apathy- creation would not occur.

Christianity is the very definition of "catching god in a human net"...
 

Iron

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Lol that was disappointing.

It's not helpful to think of Heaven in earthly terms. It's beyond our capacity to imagine, beyond our concepts of time and space.
 

Cookie182

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Lol that was disappointing.

It's not helpful to think of Heaven in earthly terms. It's beyond our capacity to imagine, beyond our concepts of time and space.
Then why imagine it at all lol
 

Cookie182

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Don't post too much more, I don't want the discussion to go to a new page...

I want my question taken seriously. I want the likes of BradCube, Mcflystar girl etc to see it!
 

Iron

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In other words you have no answer.

I specifically asked you not to bother answering anyway- you always come around to simplification. Its simply a synonym for love for you. However, there are millions of evangelicals who very much believe in the god I described.

Also, as you say- a state of perfection. The necessary consequence would be apathy- creation would not occur.

Christianity is the very definition of "catching god in a human net"...
Are you accusing me of being more simple than the common Prot, sir?

I didnt claim that God was in a state of perfection. For reasons we cant really hope to know, evil exists and it seeks to oppose God. For even stranger reasons, we exist and battle against it in the hope of reunification with the Father and the defeat of death.

Of course we can know and see God, but we certainly cant get close enough or big enough to net Him - this is the lie promised by the fallen angel!

Also, gimme a break. i come on here, look around, nothing going on, then see a nice juicy cookie post. Cut me some slack man, i wanna play too
 

Cookie182

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Are you accusing me of being more simple than the common Prot, sir?

I didnt claim that God was in a state of perfection. For reasons we cant really hope to know, evil exists and it seeks to oppose God. For even stranger reasons, we exist and battle against it in the hope of reunification with the Father and the defeat of death.

Of course we can know and see God, but we certainly cant get close enough or big enough to net Him - this is the lie promised by the fallen angel!

Also, gimme a break. i come on here, look around, nothing going on, then see a nice juicy cookie post. Cut me some slack man, i wanna play too
Haha never good sir- I'm admitedly bias, almost a Catholic without the supernatural...(going to the Vatican at end of this yr, will b there for the week before christmas, probably will attend mass).

It is a juicy question, you would have to admit its a good argument within the context of those who attempt to define god. They certainly have something to answer too.

Of course you were gonna reply, but as my favourite theist I exempted you from answering, simply because your more about spreading the love...

Edit: Of course Catholics>Prots. Organised religion is a shudder itself, but organised religion without organisation leads to praying for self-serving purposes, like new cars, stock price rises and wars in Iraq. Then again, I just hate so much about America.
 
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Cookie182

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I mean, Protestants believe only what they choose to believe, based on their personal interpretation of the Bible, which remains a Catholic holy book, and which is essentially Catholic Tradition, reduced to writing.

Not that I'm a practicing Catholic lol
 

SylviaB

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Read Job: you have no right to ask such questions. By all means seek, but dont pressume that youre on any equal footing with your creator to demand certain answers and proofs from Him




Phew! That's lucky then isn't it.

For god, that is.
 

Garygaz

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The most fucked-up reasoning I have ever heard.

Read up on presuppositionalism. Get rid of it. Then debate :)
Read it.

But seriously, humans are like a bunch of goldfish in a bowl trying to figure out what lies beyond that glass barrier. There is so much that we will never know but on the evidence of a few theories, i.e unproven hypotheses, people are willing to discount all other possibilities completely; people are treating science as a god. To be honest, I don't completely believe everything I'm saying, but I can see the rationale behind it. Believing in the big-bang requires a bit of faith in itself. Most people just receive a high-school science lesson on it and take it for fact, or assume that because 'smart scientist guys' say it's true, it is.

But yes, I just think there is too much to consider to either say yes or no completely.
 

jules.09

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Read it.

But seriously, humans are like a bunch of goldfish in a bowl trying to figure out what lies beyond that glass barrier. There is so much that we will never know but on the evidence of a few theories, i.e unproven hypotheses, people are willing to discount all other possibilities completely; people are treating science as a god. To be honest, I don't completely believe everything I'm saying, but I can see the rationale behind it. Believing in the big-bang requires a bit of faith in itself. Most people just receive a high-school science lesson on it and take it for fact, or assume that because 'smart scientist guys' say it's true, it is.

But yes, I just think there is too much to consider to either say yes or no completely.
Theories aren't evidence, first off. They're generally educated models that seem to fit certain descriptors. I don't believe people treat science as a God, if they did, there wouldn't be so many scientifically illiterate people in the wider community? Just saying. :)

I suppose, 'believing', as you call it, in the Big Bang theory does indeed require faith. Although it's a popularly regarded model, it isn't accepted as definitive fact, or at least yet. Physicists and other scientists are looking out into space, in an attempt to find out what really happened, preceding our existence on Earth and much much further beyond that.

This is where the divide between science and theology proceeds. Science embraces social flexibility, it 'gets with the times' and supports free inquiry, which I think is of paramount importance. While we have the atomic theory etc, and yes, it's a theory, in the pragmatic sense our predictions are becoming increasingly accurate and has led to the development of many new technologies. In other words, it works insofar as its purpose is concerned.

Theology however, is doctrine dictated by an archaic institution and stifles free thought. I don't see how international donations to the Vatican is going to aid the progress of humans in our contemporary society, nor do I see the relevance of gilded ceilings to the betterment of Roman Catholics worldwide.

At any rate, even if one were to regard the basic tenets of Judaeo-Christianity as being love, compassion etc, I'd argue that is already common to the rest of the community. I suppose there's nothing wrong with believing in a personal God..

.. It's about faith. That's what it is to believe: It's irrational, it's ineffable, it's personal. But you're not imposing a fickle, totalitarian deity on anyone else, in an attempt to convert them.

Strictly speaking, agnosticism is probably the most 'correct' stance, but, given that many people who live under the banner of agnosticism proceed with their lives without constant influence of 'God' in their conduct, they're practically atheists, no?

As for God per se, it appears to be a matter of semantics.
 

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