Does God exist? (25 Viewers)

[Iron]

Biblical Verse of the Day:

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

As Obama even said, if the fundies got there way in America and instilled Biblical law, not even the defense department would survive its application!!

And to those who "reject the OT"- shame on you, for the LORD your GOD commands better!

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19)

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB) [Also fucks over the Prots!]

...just a few examples. Obey the commands of your LOVING, yet admittedly jealous, furious (yet perfect) LORD your GOD!!

That's right, Christ fulfilled the OT by revealing the inherent love God has for His creation. When the OT talks about killing those who arent of the God of Israel, I think you have to read it as 'Jews were God's chosen people. He spoke primarily through them and was made man from amongst them. In the tenuous days of their early existance, it was imperative that they survived and with them God's relationship with man. We dont know the status of those who were killed/died before Christ's coming - indeed, we still mark the beginning of time itself by his arrival! When He returned to the Father, He left unto the world the power of the Holy Spirit which has since guided all seeking men in faith, charity and hope. But what we do know is that the deaths caused by Jews was a drop in the ocean compared to everything else that was going on in the world. The point is that things undeniably changed with Christ and the OT was given real flesh. You cant leap over Christ and point to the OT to criticise us, even though He was fulfilling the underlying Truth contained in the OT'...

Your other criticisms are boring though dood. 'Judging' the methods of God, however poorly as you manage, does not make Him go away. The pot cannot say to the potter that it was not made from Him, or that it is superior to Him. The first step in believing is admitting that God exists - in any form, even a bad one. The second more advanced step is in the flesh of Christ where true love and freedom is revealed.

 

[Smile_Time351]

You cant leap over Christ and point to the OT to criticise us.

True... although it is SO much easier! The flaws within the OT are immense, metaphorical Genesis or otherwise.

The problem that your argument poses us Iron, is that most contemporary Christians, when posed with the "your God is a bastard" argument, balk and simply deny the argument altogether. You accept the argument's truth and still persist with your argument. Effectively creating the following conversation:

Iron: God Exists!

Us: No he doesn't!

Iron: Look, I have a book that proves it!

Us: But that book shows that your God is an asshole! Look at all these people he's condemning because they don't like him!

Iron: Don't worry about that part, look at Version 2.0 of the book! God loves us!

Us: We'll get to that later, we're still grappling with the fact that you're worshipping a bastard!

Iron: Oh well. Suck it up and believe I guess...


See the quandry?

 

[Iron]

I do not. The point was merely that God's existance is not diminished because you believe He's a 'bastard', or that He doesnt live up to your godamn standards. If you conceed that a creator may exist, you must also conceed that He operates on a level that we, the products of His creation, cant hope to criticise. To quote God's response to Job: "Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him?'

 

[anom1ly]

While what I'm about to say might seem a little crazy, it seems perfectly logical to me.

Lets take best case scenario for all religious traditions, all their books etc. are real. Now, even if this is true, this still does not prove that a God exists. It is far more likely that what they thought was a God, may have been an alien. I suppose, many years in the future when we're flying around space, and we see primitive societies, we may stop by, fabricate some lies to give them morality, and help build their society. If they possess the technology to travel to our planet in the first place, im sure they'd have the technology to part the red sea, or turn water into wine, or bring themselves back to life. They may have set up the crucifixion as a hologram, who knows.
We could also go as far as to say that the big prophets, jesus, mohammad and the rest of them were time travellers from the future, sent back to prevent an apocalypse by starting up big religious traditions. This would else explain why they were so far ahead of their time on issues of morality.

All this we can't be sure of right now, but what we do know, is that the world does not work through divine intervention. Most things in the universe come down to either our will, or chance. God plays no role in our lives, and so he shouldn't. What type of a God would he be if he controlled our lives, making us pawns of some game.

I'm not saying God doesn't exist, but what i am saying is that many people's images of God are built on contradictions. Like people who pray. They would say their God has a plan, he is omnipotent, and they love him and trust him etc. Yet when it comes to matters of their own life, they constantly make the sign of the cross, and have a whinge to him about what they want him to do. If he is omnipotent as you believe, why do people continuously question him? It seems contradictory.

There's also the fallacy that to be a christian is to have faith in god. The problem is that every christian places their faith in man, not god. Their faith is in the bible, the church and other people of their community. All men, no god.

(If i've spelt god with a capitol 'g' you must excuse me, i've gone through catholic schooling my whole life)

 

[Iron]

lol so you believe in God but you dont? Yer but no but yer but?

 

[anom1ly]

I do not. The point was merely that God's existance is not diminished because you believe He's a 'bastard', or that He doesnt live up to your godamn standards. If you conceed that a creator may exist, you must also conceed that He operates on a level that we, the products of His creation, cant hope to criticise. To quote God's response to Job: "Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him?'

Sorry, but you are a fool.

God's existence IS diminished because he is a bastard. That is what makes him a human creation. Saying that because 'he created us' that we can't question him is the most foolish crap i've ever heard. What does your god expect us to do with our freewill? Besides, what are you going to do if your devil pretends to be god, and commands you to kill someone? Because you are such a tool, i suppose you'd go along with it. Use your brain.

And who's to say we're not the creator of this god. It is far more likely, that god was created in the image of man not the other we round. Lots of children create imaginary friends. Your god is most likely the imaginary friend of man.

 

[anom1ly]

lol so you believe in God but you dont? Yer but no but yer but?

im definately saying your god doesnt exist

 

[Iron]

Sorry, but you are a fool.

God's existence IS diminished because he is a bastard. That is what makes him a human creation. Saying that because 'he created us' that we can't question him is the most foolish crap i've ever heard. What does your god expect us to do with our freewill? Besides, what are you going to do if your devil pretends to be god, and commands you to kill someone? Because you are such a tool, i suppose you'd go along with it. Use your brain.

And who's to say we're not the creator of this god. It is far more likely, that god was created in the image of man not the other we round. Lots of children create imaginary friends. Your god is most likely the imaginary friend of man.

Spare me the teenage angst, pls.

 

[anom1ly]

Spare me the teenage angst, pls.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Iron]

You raised nothing that required to be addressed, other than your youthful insecurity

 

[saleebyman]

ive got a question about christianity/monotheistic gods. Ive never really understood this, im sure christians must have some sort of answer for it since it seems like such an obvious problem.

Firstly, God is omniscient. He knows everything, he is outside of time. he knows the past and the future.

Secondly, I have free choice to accept god or not. My future is not pre-determined, I can make my own decisions.

But how can I have a free choice if god already knows what Im going to do? God knows the future, he surely must know what I am going to do and if he does then I wouldnt have free choice. If he doesnt know what Im going to do, then he isnt much of a god.

OKgerhard thats a hard question.
my belief is that jus because someone knows whats going to to happen doesnt mean he takes free will away from u..
example: if i went to the future and saw u buy a car...
wud that mean u had no free choice to buy that car
of course u did..i jus knoe wat choice u hav made

i hope it clears things up if not...then PM me

 

[anom1ly]

You raised nothing that required to be addressed, other than your youthful insecurity

im over 100 years old. you see when i was 18, i was visited by a vampire.

 

[saleebyman]

im over 100 years old. you see when i was 18, i was visited by a vampire.

to anomi1y
i would disagree that God's a bastard. God created us so we cud hav an relationship with him (ill find some bible verses if u lik) but because we screwed up,because our sin...we cud no longer be with him....
so God sent himself the form of a man...and got himself killed as a ransom for the wrong we hav done.

but as a loving god...he wasnt gonna take our free will away from us
he gave us a freegift john 3 16

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[anom1ly]

to anomi1y
i would disagree that God's a bastard. God created us so we cud hav an relationship with him (ill find some bible verses if u lik) but because we screwed up,because our sin...we cud no longer be with him....
so God sent himself the form of a man...and got himself killed as a ransom for the wrong we hav done.

but as a loving god...he wasnt gonna take our free will away from us
he gave us a freegift john 3 16

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

why must eternal life come at the cost of believing?

 

[Smile_Time351]

Effectively this debate has come down to "Do you believe what man says about God?" as opposed to "Do you believe in God?"
For me the greatest argument of all against what the theists are currently proposing is of a similar nature to Gerhard's argument, consider the following assumptions:

1. God created me.
2. God knew how my life would play out and end when he created me.
3. God knew that I would not believe and thus is going to send me to Hell.
4. Hell is eternal, thus my life which, going off the average would last about 80 years is nothing in comparison.
5. Thus your God created me to suffer.
6. Despite the admission of Point 5, theists still claim that their God is loving and just, a God that created me as a skeptic and will then proceed to punish me for being skeptical.

Thus, the rational conclusion is that your God is neither loving nor just, and thus, when combined with the aforementioned bastardry, is not fit for worship whether or not He does exist.

 

[saleebyman]

why must eternal life come at the cost of believing?

if an athiest doesnt believe theres a god how can they can they accept a free gift,that doesnt even exist, that the creator of the gift doesnt exist

 

[be.yourself]

Wow..you are all so intelligent!
I personally believe in a God, but not in the 'God' religions worship.

 

[anom1ly]

if an athiest doesnt believe theres a god how can they can they accept a free gift,that doesnt even exist, that the creator of the gift doesnt exist

so your saying, in order for god to exist, and for eternal life to exist, i havto believe it will?

 

[Tully B.]

to anomi1y
i would disagree that God's a bastard. God created us so we cud hav an relationship with him (ill find some bible verses if u lik) but because we screwed up,because our sin...we cud no longer be with him....
so God sent himself the form of a man...and got himself killed as a ransom for the wrong we hav done.

but as a loving god...he wasnt gonna take our free will away from us
he gave us a freegift john 3 16

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Hmmm, yeah, you see, whether in your hands or God's, belief is not a choice. I can't force myself to believe in God any more than I can force myself to believe that my chair is a banana.

 

[Tully B.]

if an athiest doesnt believe theres a god how can they can they accept a free gift,that doesnt even exist, that the creator of the gift doesnt exist

That doesn't make the tiniest amount of sense. Please translate to human speak.