Do HSC sciences need more maths? (2 Viewers)

[Schoey93]

calculas should be done in year 10 maths so it can be used in physics.

My mathematics teacher+coordinator in Year 10 said the exact same thing (but she didn't mention physics cuz she doesn't care so much about it)

Good ol' Mrs Lowery

 

[Schoey93]

lol because we trust psychopaths to generate their own form of ethics...

I don't see a problem in including that sort of stuff in the syllabus, but I believe there is too much emphasis on it....the problem is balance

Psychopaths are a minority group for goodness' sake! That argument is void..
Edit: I know what you but... I think assuming every student of engineering is a psychopath could be quite problematic,lol, is all

 

[Schoey93]

calculas should be done in year 10 maths so it can be used in physics.

Typical mathematician can't spell

calculUs lol
Edit: sorry for not multiquoting, I find this easier and less time-consuming
BTW this is interesting and may/may not ... probably will have some relevance to this thread: http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/yourhsc/

 

[bob fossil]

Typical mathematician can't spell

calculUs lol

I don't care how it's spelt as long as I'm good at it lol

 

[bob fossil]

My mathematics teacher+coordinator in Year 10 said the exact same thing (but she didn't mention physics cuz she doesn't care so much about it)

Good ol' Mrs Lowery

Physics was the only example I could think of where it would be used outside of the maths class room.

Basic calculus is very easy and should be introduced in year 10.

 

[bubbrubb]

No.

I am a big fan of maths and think it has a lot of relevance in all sciences. My maths tutor told me that, when he worked for a university as a researcher in the chemistry faculty, most of his time was spent using calculus. He said he just did alot of integration (the rate of growth and such;, that his knowledge of chemistry was rarely, if ever, used. Instead he sometimes took months doing an equation.

HOWEVER. As much as I believe that the HSC should prepare you for uni, it is essentially designed to give you an ATAR. An ATAR is a rank used to give you entry into uni and it is this purpose that triumphs all other issues. This means it has to be as fair as possible to all students regardless of their selection of subjects. I would have had an unfair advantage over someone doing general mathematics if chemistry were to have more maths in it than it already has as i did 4 unit. The current syllabuses ensure that the subjects do not discriminate against particular students and this creates a fairer system to judge students and determine their ATAR.

Any slack created by substandard levels of depth in the subjects can just be picked up at uni because if their ATAR was high enough to gain entry into the course, they should be able to cope with the course - there is really no need to rush the process; when you get into uni you can learn uni stuff.

 

[Deer]

as you get into your field, you'll start realising the 'asses the impact' etc. etc. isn't THAT stupid seeing as there is often a hefty emphasis on code of ethics amongst your colleagues.

Yes
Exactly
But no, no one listened to me...

Continue doing your mindless calculations in your little science vaccuums without any context... because hey, context isn't necessary, who needs to think about the moral consequences of our actions in society, who cares how far we've progressed over the course of history, psh, meaningless rubble.

 

[alcalder]

Yes, because the jump from HSC science Chem & Physics to Uni Chem/Physics is crazy now. It was tough back before the syllabus was changed but I have no idea how people cope now.

 

[iSplicer]

calculas should be done in year 10 maths so it can be used in physics.

Spelling should be done in preschool so it can be used properly without sounding like a retard.

NB: I made sure the 'a' was nowhere near the 'u' on the keyboard.

 

[ninetypercent]

its not maths you need, but logical thinking!!!

 

[bubbrubb]

3u students can do projectile motion a lot easier, so they have an inherent advantage anyway lol

I also see no issues in giving people who are good at maths an advantage over those who don't. To pretend that sciences are largely independent of maths is foolish.

lol yeah 3U students can do proj motion... but 4 unit students must do 3 unit as well? don't know what you are saying :S

You state that you have no issues giving people who are good at maths an advantage over those who don't - ME NEITHER. I'm referring not to the ABILITY of the student but rather the subjects he has chosen. Many students will become disadvantaged if sciences have harder maths.
For example: 2 students of equal ability in maths. One student does no maths while another does 4 unit maths. The one doing 4 unit maths learns formulas, techniques and theory behind the mathematics of projectile motion etc while the one not doing any maths will only have physics lessons to learn the maths involved. Obviously the 4 unit student will have a very big edge over the other student.

You argue that to pretend science is independent of maths is foolish. This is true to a certain extent. I, however, must emphasize that this is unfair for the purpose of the HSC. I must emphasize that the Board of Studies must provide the most level playing field to students across the state and not be disadvantaged by their subject selection. This is because the end goal is the ATAR which is a RANK. Since ATAR is a RANK the Board of Studies must sacrifice the integrity of the subject for determining the true ability of the student unaffected by whether or not they were keen on doing 3 unit maths or not - we cannot have students achieving higher ATAR because they made better subject selection can we?

ALSO PEOPLE STOP REFERRING TO UNI TO ARGUE A POINT??? IT IS IRRELEVANT: Uni students are not competing against one another but simply striving for the highest grades which are absolute and not relative to their peers - so the UNI can create the course however they wish with however much maths they want as one student's success does not affect anothers - see where im getting at?

While i concede that the amount of maths in sciences is ridiculously limited, i think it is less of a priority when compared to the greater purpose of the HSC which is to create a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD BASED SOLELY ON EFFORT AND ABILITY to determine a RANK not a GRADE.

 

[ninetypercent]

science beyond high school involves a lot of maths, therefore, in the HSC, more Maths should be put in.

 

[bob fossil]

Spelling should be done in preschool so it can be used properly without sounding like a retard.

NB: I made sure the 'a' was nowhere near the 'u' on the keyboard.

Wanker

 

[study-freak]

I have no idea what you're saying either



Firstly, that scenario is ridiculous, and secondly, I don't see a problem at this stage.



Ummm people are disadvantaged by their subject selection....

Explain why the 'integrity' of a subject must be sacrificed for a level playing field? If a student wants to prove their ability, they will choose HARDER subjects. That is one of the key reasons we have things like 4u maths. It is naive to suppose that everyone is on a level playing field at the moment - just look at the scaling done by UAC.



Actually, in uni, people do get ranked - there are prizes for coming 1st in a subject, there is also a little thing called the University Medal. And no, I don't see what you're getting at.



The HSC is not a level playing field. Adding maths will ensure that people who are genuinely good at science will get better marks, rather than the person who is able to memorise tracts of information and regurgitate it in the exam.

That's quite debatable. If adding maths will ensure the true assessment of students' abilities in science, you are sort of assuming that science=maths.
Science utilises mathematics as an essential tool but science is NOT maths.

IMO, it's important for students to be able to relate maths used in science to explanation in words so that they know wth they are learning.
The old syllabus for science discouraged true understanding of scientific principles but just emphasised maths, maths and maths. Many of science students at the time could not relate the maths they learnt to reality (well, at least according to the tutor I had for the HSC).


You do have a valid point about regurgitating. However, I would think that it is bloody difficult to 'reguigitate' huge volume of information without thorough understanding. There are exceptions, of course.

So in conclusion, I think that although maths in HSC science is really a joke, it doesn't mean that science should be rich in maths at the HSC level (of course, we need maths in unis to simplify/represent/reinforce science as things get more complicated). If there is one good thing about the current science curricula for the HSC, they reinforce understanding, rather than quantitative evaluation that anyone with good maths ability can do without exceptional understanding of science (at the HSC level, I mean).

 

[study-freak]

Sorry, you're right - it is a bit of a generalisation, but science is intrinsically linked with maths - you cannot study science and be ignorant of maths. But take a look at the physics courses in other countries - HSC is not in line with them, hence the need for olympiad physics to have such a different syllabus (our physics nqe is merely an extension of sats, for example, but is far removed from hsc)

and my evidence that lots of people regurgitate is the fact that there are people who get awesome marks in physics, and fail at the physics nqe (which i see as a better alternative to the hsc). NQE is entirely your understanding of concepts, and mathematical calculations (with a bit of dimensional analysis chucked in)

Hmm, I see. Yeah, I completely agree with you on this. Indeed, maths is imperative in science.

I didn't know what NQE was and so I just looked it up and it seemed like a very good exam that tests both theory and maths.
Yeah, probably those who can get high marks in the HSC but low marks in the NQE rote-learnt science.

 

[ilikebeeef]

Chem, and Bio (a little bit) need more maths imo. Physics is okay as it is. If more maths were to be incorporated into Physics, then lots more content needs to be put in.

 

[Name_Taken]

I don't think they should include more maths into the syllabus. Courses like Physics and Chem should be fair for people doing basic Mathematics courses, and not be as such to give people doing Extension units in Maths an advantage.

The HSC science courses are only really a light overview of each of the various fields and should be accessable to every student, if they have an interest in the area, provided they have an elementary grasp of fundamental Mathematics.

People who crave more Maths in Physics and Chemistry should get more involved with things like the Physics and Chem Olympiads, or wait until University, where Maths will represent a much larger component of the course material.

 

[Schoey93]

Good point ^



Teachers could teach beyond the syllabus and teach more maths in HSC science courses, or students of HSC physics could teach themselves projectile motion

 

[with-chu]

agreed, had 5 bloody ten markers in my first HSC assessment. and all of them were like "assess the significance of the manhattan project to society. 10 marks"

Holy shit ==
That's gonna be my second assessment....

I said no, we don't need more maths in our sciences. I agree with that statement about the essential scientific concepts being more accessible without advanced maths. The current balance in my opinion is pretty good - keeping the key science concepts in perspective as well as backing that up with some relevant, basic mathematics.

 

[Matt2233]

They should make an option topic for each science have a decent amount of difficult math. That way the course is still open to people who do basic math courses and the people who want to be challenged mathematically can be.

Also, can all the 11's stop posting in threads like these. You can't have a opinion on something you know jack all about. And no, reading though a textbook (who the fuck does that anyway) does not mean you know whats in the course.