POLITICAL TRAP: Gillard, Abbott hide from angry protesters (2 Viewers)

[Lentern]

C'mon there will always be ignorant dickheads who try to deny things.
The fact is that they are only the minority.

It is a consensus in society that these things happened. And thus these issue do get a significant amount of recognition. (with the backing of the state, the education system (spending 2 whole years on it) and a siginificant part of the media)

It's a consensus that "something bad happened", but how many people do you think hold the view that "aborigines have it pretty good". That non indigenous Australians have already made more than adequate reparations etc?

 

[Lolsmith]

"entire" is an exaggeration obviously

 

[Lentern]

bringing them home had some very valid points that made a lot of sense


but if you want to enact any sort of positive change

you will forget about the bogan yobbos and fat columnists from the australian

You're saying this as those you hold a more tolerant and conciliatory standpoint than them though

 

[katie tully]

You're saying this as those you hold a more tolerant and conciliatory standpoint than them though

I do though. I rant on here a bit and make jokes at their expenses, but I am acutely aware of why their situation is as dire as it is and why we can't move past it. Look, just for you, just this once, I'll be serious.

Their situation is cyclic - we may argue "well no aboriginals under the age of say 40 have any reason to complain", but the cycle/chain of poverty and disfranchisement is not easily broken, regardless of colour. So where these things might not have directly happened to somebody my age, if their parents or grandparents had negative experiences, I can appreciate that this will continue through the generations until somebody stops it.

The wider community think that the issues stem from two things: "invasion day" and "stolen generation". Not many can comprehend that until the late 1960s, they couldn't vote, they couldn't attend school and if they did they were only allowed to till a certain age and were segregated. That until maybe 20 years ago, job discrimination was rampant (maybe it still is but I doubt to the same extent).

What I am arguing, and I see your point Christian but I still think it's moot. If you want to enact any sort of real change *now*, and not wait until the majority of the population comes to their senses - the target should be Aboriginal communities themselves and their attitudes. Do they have every reason to be distrustful - yes. Bitter - yes. I honestly think the cycle will be broken if you can change attitudes within the communities. Move away from resent, a sense of entitlement. Find people with community ties willing to become solid role models for younger generations...

I'll find my other posts, but many Aboriginal communities are doing this and with fantastic results. I mentioned recently my experiences in Wilcannia, which was both the most depressing yet hopeful experience of my life. Within this community, some men are taking charge and are trying to break the cycle of alcoholism, domestic violence, poverty and suicide by enforcing positive role models and support networks. Does it matter to them whether whitey down the road is sympathetic to their cause? Hardly, but if you have someone who has been through the cycle and come out the other side, people are more receptive to them.


tl;dr, fuck the general consensus.

 

[Bored_of_HSC]

It's a consensus that "something bad happened", but how many people do you think hold the view that "aborigines have it pretty good". That non indigenous Australians have already made more than adequate reparations etc?

My point was specifically in response to you dwelling on the fact that there are those who "deny the atrocities of the past".

I think the real problem here is differing perspectives of when we've made amends. What statistic could we use to say enough is enough?
Also there are all these historical issues of "who is guilty" ect ect.

(note i'm trying to stay out of the specifics of this discussion)

 

[katie tully]

Find my other posts by autismsuperstar. I made the example of Aboriginal women being too hesitant to take their children to hospital for minor ailments, because the scars of the stolen generation run deep. What starts off as benign becomes serious pathology, which crosses the line into child neglect, even though one could argue that was not the intent.

Those attitudes will not be fixed because the some in the community stop thinking of Aboriginals as dole heads, or recognise the atrocities committed towards Aboriginals. The only solution I can foresee as viable and able to be implemented sooner rather than later is to establish better support networks and attitude shifts within the community.

 

[katie tully]

My point was specifically in response to you dwelling on the fact that there are those who "deny the atrocities of the past".

I think the real problem here is differing perspectives of when we've made amends. What statistic could we use to say enough is enough?
Also there are all these historical issues of "who is guilty" ect ect.

(note i'm trying to stay out of the specifics of this discussion)

Yes yes I was going to ask this exact question. If we dwell on the fact that some in the community consider Aboriginals as useless, or having it pretty good - what is the baseline we need to achieve in terms of changed attitudes before it becomes irrelevant? What is the measurable change in attitudes we need to achieve?


You need to understand that peoples perceptions are often shaped by their experiences. Sometimes I find my perceptions jaded because I have had many negative experiences with Aboriginals, which tend to stand out more than negative experiences with others. I acknowledge these as isolated and not indicative of the wider Aboriginal community, but some people can't move past that and thus will never change their attitudes.

You will be forever fighting a losing battle.

 

[qawe]

That's as bad as the bible, saying we're all sinned because Adam and Eve ate an apple. I didn't eat that apple, the same why I didn't take anyone's land so why am I paying for it?

The Bible doesn't say that. It says/We believe that we all have an inclination to sin because Adam and Eve ate the fruit.

 

[SylviaB]

face it bro abos will never be equal

 

[SylviaB]

lentern buddy you better call a doctor

cos this erection is gonna last longer than 4 hours

 

[Chemical Ali]

lentern buddy you better call a doctor

cos this erection is gonna last longer than 4 hours

I'm glad the herald sun consistently takes so much interest in the contents of the new curriculum and that this is not click bait in any way shape or form

 

[Bored_of_HSC]

lentern buddy you better call a doctor

cos this erection is gonna last longer than 4 hours

 

[townie]

I am suprised to find i agree with KT. Lentern you seem to care more about words, and some arty farty ideals than you do about doing something, i don't know, constructive?

When working on the Census, and the Aboriginal engagement strategy, the best response we got from communities was when they recognised that there was only so far the government(i.e. us) could go to help them, that they had to take responsibility to get a good outcome for themselves in the Census, and more often than not this came about because somebody everybody in the community actually respected was willing to sell that self responsibility message. Now we could have spent hundreds of millions of dollars more to get a good count, by just sending in hordes of people to do it, but it isnt the same. P.S. yes i recognise the Census in terms of importance of miniscule compared to other outcomes, but the principal is the same.

 

[Lentern]

I do though. I rant on here a bit and make jokes at their expenses, but I am acutely aware of why their situation is as dire as it is and why we can't move past it. Look, just for you, just this once, I'll be serious.

Their situation is cyclic - we may argue "well no aboriginals under the age of say 40 have any reason to complain", but the cycle/chain of poverty and disfranchisement is not easily broken, regardless of colour. So where these things might not have directly happened to somebody my age, if their parents or grandparents had negative experiences, I can appreciate that this will continue through the generations until somebody stops it.

The wider community think that the issues stem from two things: "invasion day" and "stolen generation". Not many can comprehend that until the late 1960s, they couldn't vote, they couldn't attend school and if they did they were only allowed to till a certain age and were segregated. That until maybe 20 years ago, job discrimination was rampant (maybe it still is but I doubt to the same extent).

What I am arguing, and I see your point Christian but I still think it's moot. If you want to enact any sort of real change *now*, and not wait until the majority of the population comes to their senses - the target should be Aboriginal communities themselves and their attitudes. Do they have every reason to be distrustful - yes. Bitter - yes. I honestly think the cycle will be broken if you can change attitudes within the communities. Move away from resent, a sense of entitlement. Find people with community ties willing to become solid role models for younger generations...

I'll find my other posts, but many Aboriginal communities are doing this and with fantastic results. I mentioned recently my experiences in Wilcannia, which was both the most depressing yet hopeful experience of my life. Within this community, some men are taking charge and are trying to break the cycle of alcoholism, domestic violence, poverty and suicide by enforcing positive role models and support networks. Does it matter to them whether whitey down the road is sympathetic to their cause? Hardly, but if you have someone who has been through the cycle and come out the other side, people are more receptive to them.


tl;dr, fuck the general consensus.

Ok, I apologize I thought you were just being provocative, in my defense you do have form. I agree with a lot of what you've said, in terms of government policy you're definitely right that the most effective way of achieving tangible outcomes for Indigenous Australians is working with roe models in indigenous communities to change the psyche of these communities. My statements about the need to recognize the atrocities, to show compassion etc are not so much about government policy when as you've stated, the political class are more or less on the right page there but more so in response to the claims of others that reparations are not justified, that aborigines get too much help already etc etc.

 

[Lentern]

I am suprised to find i agree with KT. Lentern you seem to care more about words, and some arty farty ideals than you do about doing something, i don't know, constructive?

By which I take it you mean principles don't matter?

 

[townie]

By which I take it you mean principles don't matter?

Not at the expense of actually doing something, no.

 

[Funky Monk]

You're saying this as those you hold a more tolerant and conciliatory standpoint than them though

Dude how could you be so blind

 

[Lentern]

Not at the expense of actually doing something, no.

Oh yeah doing something, why didn't I or the governments past and present think of just "doing something". The whole problem could be reversed over night if we just start "doing something." Because there is this lever arch file full of silver bullet solutions to the problem that can be implemented cheaply, quickly and without any adverse sideeffects, we just didn't realize anyone wanted anyone to "do something."

 

[SylviaB]

How will "recognition" economically help our black brothers and sisters eaxctly

 

[Lentern]

How will "recognition" economically help our black brothers and sisters eaxctly

Why do you keep saying economically?