Relelvance of HSC Courses in Skill Building (1 Viewer)

[Sy123]

Now, education is supposed to build our skills to help with later life, whether indirectly or directly (school doesn't really prepare us directly). Discuss the value of certain subjects in skill building, I suppose the main areas of focus will be English and Maths, but feel free to discuss about Humanities and Sciences.

This is not a subject fight thread, don't flame other subjects unless you can provide evidence and back yourself up. For instance don't say:

'OMG where am I going to use calculus in real life!'

'HSC English is the most useless stuff ever'

You may say anything just back yourself up.

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[anomalousdecay]

I use Mathematical Induction in my English essays......Well at least the method that is.

 

[hayabusaboston]

Now, education is supposed to build our skills to help with later life, whether indirectly or directly (school doesn't really prepare us directly). Discuss the value of certain subjects in skill building, I suppose the main areas of focus will be English and Maths, but feel free to discuss about Humanities and Sciences.

This is not a subject fight thread, don't flame other subjects unless you can provide evidence and back yourself up. For instance don't say:

'OMG where am I going to use calculus in real life!'

'HSC English is the most useless stuff ever'

You may say anything just back yourself up.

========================

well if this is a discussion I believe you should begin my posting first, with your own opinion

 

[omgiloverice]

HSC physics is probably the worst science subject that the board of studies managed to produce, and I have no idea why many universities bother listing down as assumed knowledge. The entire course contains hardly any mathematics, and calculations. Instead tells you 'explain how this discovery affected that' and 'evaluate the impact of this result'. With questions like those which take so long to answer, you might as well call this course 'HSC philosophy of physics'. If you are going to do an engineering or physics degrees I highly doubt you will encounter these types of statements or situations in an university exam or in real life. I reckon the board of studies should introduce an advanced calculus based physics course, similar to that of IB and ap physics.

 

[fatboi]

To be honest, a lot of subjects you will not get direct use out of. But all education involves the building to reasoning skills, critical evaluation, study methods, and critical thinking.

 

[anomalousdecay]

The problem is that not everyone does 2-unit in Physics. Me and two others in our Physics class do 4-unit. At least we get to do Mechanics. One other person also does 3-unit and one other does 2-unit. Only 5 people in our Physics class does 2-unit or higher. The other 15 people got kicked out for failing 2-unit and do general now.
That is the only reason why HSC Physics and HSC Chemistry do not contain intense calculations. Btw, 5 people in our Chem class do MX2, one does 2-unit, one does general. Unfortunately, Mechanics in 4-unit has nothing to do with Chemistry .

 

[SpiralFlex]

Did you know some things in HSC Physics they teach you in the syllabus are incorrect

There shouldn't be "intensive calculations" but rather questions that make you think instead of writing stuff for 5/6 markers that the Board of studies want to see

 

[girlworld_club]

Out of all the subjects i do i find chemistry most rewarding and applicable. It also helps with problem solving skills in other subjects.

 

[omgiloverice]

The problem is that not everyone does 2-unit in Physics. Me and two others in our Physics class do 4-unit. At least we get to do Mechanics. One other person also does 3-unit and one other does 2-unit. Only 5 people in our Physics class does 2-unit or higher. The other 15 people got kicked out for failing 2-unit and do general now.
That is the only reason why HSC Physics and HSC Chemistry do not contain intense calculations. Btw, 5 people in our Chem class do MX2, one does 2-unit, one does general. Unfortunately, Mechanics in 4-unit has nothing to do with Chemistry .

I do agree with everything you said and I understand that not everybody doing HSC physics have exceptional skill in maths (which is why they should introduce advanced science course courses), but questions such as 'asses the impact on society and the environment of the potential applications of superconductors', will have no real life value what so ever, unless your a major scientist or PHd student. Even by then you would already gained the skills necessary to properly answer this question.
Take a look at VCE physics papers the types of question is exactly what I would except in a physics paper. Although they could be abit harder .

Did you know some things in HSC Physics they teach you in the syllabus are incorrect

There shouldn't be "intensive calculations" but rather questions that make you think instead of writing stuff for 5/6 markers that the Board of studies want to see

Incorrect? such as? o.o
That is the problem the Board of Studies attempt to give questions that encourages critical thinking, but they are only restricted in their own syllabus and rote learners are able spill out generic band 6 answers without thinking at all. Instead the Board of Studies should recreate pseudo-real life scenarios, and force the student to use the skills obtained through HSC physics to calculate and justify whatever the students need to answer.

And here is a quote I found from talent100 "When I asked Jack Dwyer how he was able to beat the Chemistry Olympiad team in the HSC, he said that it was his strength in English that probably gave him the edge in Chemistry! And for myself, although I think my Chemistry is stronger than my Physics, I topped Physics because I was able to answer exactly what the examiners were looking for."

Jack is better in HSC Chemistry than the Chemistry Olympiad team because of English skills? ridiculous... I feel sorry for the Olympiad team...

 

[Sy123]

The problem is that not everyone does 2-unit in Physics. Me and two others in our Physics class do 4-unit. At least we get to do Mechanics. One other person also does 3-unit and one other does 2-unit. Only 5 people in our Physics class does 2-unit or higher. The other 15 people got kicked out for failing 2-unit and do general now.
That is the only reason why HSC Physics and HSC Chemistry do not contain intense calculations. Btw, 5 people in our Chem class do MX2, one does 2-unit, one does general. Unfortunately, Mechanics in 4-unit has nothing to do with Chemistry .

This is a core problem with the HSC itself, why should they have to dumb down the Physics and Chemistry syllabus to exclude Calculus? Just because a couple of people think they can actually do Physics and Chemistry...

If Physics and Chemistry had intense calculations I still would not like it that much because that introduced tedium into the course much like the 2U course where some questions are just unnecessarily long.

Calculus should be introduced into the course, but not as an excuse to just shove calculation in the face of students, but to give students a proper understanding underlying many physics concepts.

And I really don't care if General students have a problem with that, its their fault for doing General maths. (a subject that the BOS should probably just abolish altogether)

 

[Absolutezero]

And I really don't care if General students have a problem with that, its their fault for doing General maths. (a subject that the BOS should probably just abolish altogether)

That's ridiculous. General Maths is far more useful in skill building than the Advanced stuff. Not everyone has the inclination or need for higher level Maths. I did extension and haven't used a damn thing from it since I left high school. General Maths would have covered everything I've needed just fine.

 

[SpiralFlex]

General math should be there it's a fine subject they learn stuff 2-4U kids don't

 

[Sy123]

That's ridiculous. General Maths is far more useful in skill building than the Advanced stuff. Not everyone has the inclination or need for higher level Maths. I did extension and haven't used a damn thing from it since I left high school. General Maths would have covered everything I've needed just fine.

This is equivalent to the argument 'where am I going to use this in real life'
Study of mathematics gives you great practise in logical thinking (moreso in extensions), in General maths its more plug and play from what I've seen. You learn to pay your taxes/loans in both 2U and General maths though (though General maths is inferior in that it is formulaic)

Where am I going to use Permutations and Combinations in real life?
I probably won't

But you need to think logically in order to understand perms and combinations, this is something beneficial since it trains your brain to think logically and to be able to find what you need through reasoning.

And that is just an example, most of mathematics is beneficial in creating a logical mindset.

General maths is a joke.

 

[enoilgam]

I think General definitely has it's place - you will find that many people would struggle with 2 unit, which is why General exists. I know that for me personally, I had to put quite a bit of effort into 2 unit to get a band 6. I think you are underestimating the difficulty of maths for many students. Having tutored people in Maths who are average/below average (compared to the state), I will be the first to admit that with proper instruction and hard work, people can improve a great deal. But in saying that, I dont think many of my students would cope at all in MX1 or MX2 because they simply lack the ability. Even 2 unit would be pushing it for many of them - they would probably need to put in a fair bit of effort even to push a band 5 in the subject.

 

[brent012]

an advanced calculus based physics course, similar to that of IB and ap physics.

AP Physics in it's simplest form is non-calculus based. It mostly involves interpreting questions and applying formulae - the math is pretty much just algebra and trig. It's what HSC Physics could easily and probably should be.

My old physics teacher reckoned that before the current hsc format (2001 i believe?) physics and science subjects were strongly math based. I don't agree with him for this part since it makes no sense to me, but he reckoned it was because they were male dominated courses and wordy questions were brought in to try and change that.

I think the board are worried about deviating too much from the way junior science works. They shouldn't be - that's what Senior Science is for and should be promoted as such.

Tbh though if HSC Physics becomes mathematical based the scaling and/or aligning will sky rocket. Compulsory first year physics subjects in uni have fairly high failure rates (~50% at UNSW i hear), and that is among students who have likely succeeded in HSC sciences and maths.

 

[SpiralFlex]

There are general kids that are better than some 4U students I have seen in terms of logical thinking. The reason general should stay is because it gives people who don't want to read into calculus yet enjoy maths an option. If students want to extend themselves in logical thinking they can do so via different means whether it be in 2-4U or entering competitions for mathematics or informatics. The point of general 2-4U is it gives an option for everyone and that is the essence of education

 

[enoilgam]

There are general kids that are better than some 4U students I have seen in terms of logical thinking. The reason general should stay is because it gives people who don't want to read into calculus yet enjoy maths an option. If students want to extend themselves I they can do so via different means whether it be in 2-4U or entering competitions for mathematics or informatics. The point of general 2-4U is it gives an option for everyone and that is the essence of education

This is also a good point. I knew a few people in this boat at high school - they definitely had the potential for higher level maths but simply didnt want to do it.

 

[Sy123]

There are general kids that are better than some 4U students I have seen in terms of logical thinking. The reason general should stay is because it gives people who don't want to read into calculus yet enjoy maths an option. If students want to extend themselves in logical thinking they can do so via different means whether it be in 2-4U or entering competitions for mathematics or informatics. The point of general 2-4U is it gives an option for everyone and that is the essence of education

Well if they want to test their ability doing laughable papers like this

http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/hsc_exams/hsc2012exams/pdf_doc/2012-hsc-exam-general-maths.pdf

then more the power to them, but if they want to Physics, then they need to adopt a calculus based course at the very least.

Also yeah there probably are people in general who can think better than in MX2, but that would probably only be as of recent, which I can attribute to the lower scaling of ext2 (see other thread)

 

[SpiralFlex]

Well if they want to test their ability doing laughable papers like this

http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/hsc_exams/hsc2012exams/pdf_doc/2012-hsc-exam-general-maths.pdf

then more the power to them, but if they want to Physics, then they need to adopt a calculus based course at the very least.

Also yeah there probably are people in general who can think better than in MX2, but that would probably only be as of recent, which I can attribute to the lower scaling of ext2 (see other thread)

If they were to implement calculus in physics they would make it in 3U phys

 

[Sy123]

If they were to implement calculus in physics they would make it in 3U phys

That would be a great idea.

3U Physics, maybe even 3U Chemistry, and bring back 3U Economics
I would like that.