Should i pursue law? (1 Viewer)

[Kiraken]

first thing i noticed

No Legal Studies


are you serious

tbf a lot of people do law without doing legal studies at school

 

[Shadowdude]

tbf a lot of people do law without doing legal studies at school

Yes but are they really passionate about law?

I'd imagine any budding young lawyer would jump at the chance to learn some Law related subject.

 

[Kiraken]

Yes but are they really passionate about law?

I'd imagine any budding young lawyer would jump at the chance to learn some Law related subject.

you also have to take into account the hsc is unfortunately a points game

due to the competitive nature of law and the really high atars required, i think it is understandable if people choose their hsc subjects based on what will maximise their atar to get into the course they desire

 

[strawberrye]

Yes but are they really passionate about law?

I'd imagine any budding young lawyer would jump at the chance to learn some Law related subject.

Although I understand your scepticism, I disagree with your view that only those that are passionate about law subjects in high school are genuinely passionate about law for intrinsic factors rather than extrinsic factors such as prestige, expectations and potential monetary gain. I know many people who haven't pursue legal studies as a subject yet are fervently passionate about law. It is important to realise that legal studies is a lot about how effectiveness law reforms are, while in uni-it is all about studying what the actual law is and application of legal principles to different cases-they are very different aspects. There are exceptions to every common assumptions and perceptions.

 

[Shadowdude]

you also have to take into account the hsc is unfortunately a points game

due to the competitive nature of law and the really high atars required, i think it is understandable if people choose their hsc subjects based on what will maximise their atar to get into the course they desire

Hmm, yes that could be a factor.

 

[Shadowdude]

Although I understand your scepticism, I disagree with your view that only those that are passionate about law subjects in high school are genuinely passionate about law for intrinsic factors rather than extrinsic factors such as prestige, expectations and potential monetary gain. I know many people who haven't pursue legal studies as a subject yet are fervently passionate about law. It is important to realise that legal studies is a lot about how effectiveness law reforms are, while in uni-it is all about studying what the actual law is and application of legal principles to different cases-they are very different aspects. There are exceptions to every common assumptions and perceptions.

But would they know this?

I doubt a Year 10 student who wants to pick law won't pick Legal Studies because they know as a fact that it's different to what law is at uni, in general.

 

[Futuremedstudent]

first thing i noticed

No Legal Studies

are you serious

I know a few people who did no science and went to med school.

 

[Crobat]

I want to do medicine but i don't mind studying law if i don't get it into med and i'm willing to work hard. I know lots of people who want to be a doctor or a lawyer for the money and the prestige.

Yes but are they really passionate about law?

I'd imagine any budding young lawyer would jump at the chance to learn some Law related subject.

Well yes and no. It's a logical leap but it's also important to remember that the way the current education system works, they expect you to have your life figured out at 16 and for most people that just doesn't happen. There are thousands of jobs out there and thousands more to be created, and a 16 year old can't be expected to know what they want to do in life, or the intricate details of every job available to them. But what will always concern high school students is the thing most immediate to them - i.e. the HSC - and since the HSC is a numbers game, they'll likely choose subjects based on scaling, etc, to maximise their ATAR so that options are available to them. Not having done Legal Studies isn't a detriment to a prospective Law student since the subject in no way reflects Law School, and given that OP's immediate interest is Med anyway, it makes sense.

Having said that, Law is not something you choose merely as a back up or as something you "don't mind" studying because it will make point of consuming your life and being in your face about it as well. I disagree with Strawberrye's comment that statistics aren't important because they really are. I would even argue that they are one of the most important things in life. To law school in particular, they give you an idea of the drop out rates, employment rates, depression rates (there are charity organisations for law students with depression like for example the Tristan Jepson Memorial Foundation) and much more, and will give you an ability to make educated inferences as to what to expect from Law School. Flicking through a textbook is not going to give you that ability. Being able to sit there and say "Hmmm looks manageable, I can certainly memorise these cases and legislations" is not a good test for seeing whether you are capable of surviving law school because the discipline demands so much more from you. The mistake you will always be led to make is to think that you are an exception or will be an exception to these statistics (this is in the generalised form of cliche's like "impossible has a i'm possible" etc). The reality is that you, and many more students like you, are all in the same boat - you're intelligent, reasonably aware, and capable of great things. But that's the average law student, and law school demands more from you, and employers demand even more. Everyone starts out law school with that attitude, and the reason the stats show what they do is because everyone goes through the same shit and begins to realise the same things.

The people who excel in law school are the ones who are ready to devote their lives to law, not the ones who have talked with some lawyers whose purpose on the day was to sell the law discipline to young budding students and who think of law as a back up and as something they wouldn't mind studying.

Med School I suspect is the same, and given that you are passionate about Medicine I would say you should devote your attention to Medicine. It makes no sense to say "if I don't make med, I'll do law instead" because they are incredibly different disciplines and because it shows to an extent that you might not really be passionate about either. Yes it's always good to have a fall back - I'm doing a double degree and my fall back is tax law consulting in accounting firms (actually it's with the hope that I progress to the in house legal team and then make partner and then possibly even transferring into a full on law firm from there) - but fallbacks should be linked to your immediate passion, not something that you might be able to see yourself doing.

I'm not saying that you aren't going to be good at or suitable for law - you're only in Year 10 and many people change in those last three years of high school and for you that might include your interests shifting from medicine to law. But considering Law as a fall back is naive, especially when your interests lie in Medicine, and having people tell you that "you can do anything you want!" and to "ignore what's happening to everyone else!" when it comes to things like this is unhelpful to say the least. You need to know what you're in for, and your self-assessment of that needs to come from looking at what is happening to everyone else, because that is the only way to gauge things properly.

And to give you a just a little bit extra, have a look at this article and the comments related to it: It is the worst time in living history to be a law graduate. And this is provided you even make it through law school.

 

[Crobat]

I think you forgot to mention that you need exceptional writing skills for law and medicine.

This is also true. There are a lot of other skills you need too like critical thinking and constructing a logical argument that shouldn't be ignored either. But my main point at the moment is simply that you can't enter into Law with an attitude that it's just your back up and that you "don't mind" studying it, and also that you can't ignore the statistics which show you how harsh it really is.

 

[Crobat]

I think that's the problem with law. A lot of people think it's going to be the best thing they have ever done and then come to uni they get a rude shock that it may not be what they expected. There's this one dude in my year who wants to do law and I questioned him why he aspires to pursue that goal and he said it's for the money. I was going to warn him of the dangers of having a mentality like that, but I knew he would brush it aside anyway.

It'll also shock him when he realises there's actually not that much money in Law until the higher positions

 

[Crobat]

Hahahahaha. But seriously, the article I guess is right that there is an oversupply in law graduates.

Well I don't think there's anything to guess about when a national law recruiter tells you there is. But tbh I think that there's an oversupply of graduates period. The difference is just that in some industries there are more available positions than others, and in others there are just more demand for graduates.

 

[wannaspoon]

Hahahahaha. But seriously, the article I guess is right that there is an oversupply in law graduates.

There is an oversupply of graduates in almost every single profession at the moment... Accounting, Finance, Engineering, etc... they all have more graduates than positions; doesn't mean you won't get work in your profession...

I personally love a challenge...

 

[Futuremedstudent]

Well yes and no. It's a logical leap but it's also important to remember that the way the current education system works, they expect you to have your life figured out at 16 and for most people that just doesn't happen. There are thousands of jobs out there and thousands more to be created, and a 16 year old can't be expected to know what they want to do in life, or the intricate details of every job available to them. But what will always concern high school students is the thing most immediate to them - i.e. the HSC - and since the HSC is a numbers game, they'll likely choose subjects based on scaling, etc, to maximise their ATAR so that options are available to them. Not having done Legal Studies isn't a detriment to a prospective Law student since the subject in no way reflects Law School, and given that OP's immediate interest is Med anyway, it makes sense.

Having said that, Law is not something you choose merely as a back up or as something you "don't mind" studying because it will make point of consuming your life and being in your face about it as well. I disagree with Strawberrye's comment that statistics aren't important because they really are. I would even argue that they are one of the most important things in life. To law school in particular, they give you an idea of the drop out rates, employment rates, depression rates (there are charity organisations for law students with depression like for example the Tristan Jepson Memorial Foundation) and much more, and will give you an ability to make educated inferences as to what to expect from Law School. Flicking through a textbook is not going to give you that ability. Being able to sit there and say "Hmmm looks manageable, I can certainly memorise these cases and legislations" is not a good test for seeing whether you are capable of surviving law school because the discipline demands so much more from you. The mistake you will always be led to make is to think that you are an exception or will be an exception to these statistics (this is in the generalised form of cliche's like "impossible has a i'm possible" etc). The reality is that you, and many more students like you, are all in the same boat - you're intelligent, reasonably aware, and capable of great things. But that's the average law student, and law school demands more from you, and employers demand even more. Everyone starts out law school with that attitude, and the reason the stats show what they do is because everyone goes through the same shit and begins to realise the same things.

The people who excel in law school are the ones who are ready to devote their lives to law, not the ones who have talked with some lawyers whose purpose on the day was to sell the law discipline to young budding students and who think of law as a back up and as something they wouldn't mind studying.

Med School I suspect is the same, and given that you are passionate about Medicine I would say you should devote your attention to Medicine. It makes no sense to say "if I don't make med, I'll do law instead" because they are incredibly different disciplines and because it shows to an extent that you might not really be passionate about either. Yes it's always good to have a fall back - I'm doing a double degree and my fall back is tax law consulting in accounting firms (actually it's with the hope that I progress to the in house legal team and then make partner and then possibly even transferring into a full on law firm from there) - but fallbacks should be linked to your immediate passion, not something that you might be able to see yourself doing.

I'm not saying that you aren't going to be good at or suitable for law - you're only in Year 10 and many people change in those last three years of high school and for you that might include your interests shifting from medicine to law. But considering Law as a fall back is naive, especially when your interests lie in Medicine, and having people tell you that "you can do anything you want!" and to "ignore what's happening to everyone else!" when it comes to things like this is unhelpful to say the least. You need to know what you're in for, and your self-assessment of that needs to come from looking at what is happening to everyone else, because that is the only way to gauge things properly.

And to give you a just a little bit extra, have a look at this article and the comments related to it: It is the worst time in living history to be a law graduate. And this is provided you even make it through law school.

Thanks for the tips
btw i love the meme- it made my day.

 

[Crobat]

Thanks for the tips
btw i love the meme- it made my day.

No worries

I'm quite surprised no one made that meme earlier

 

[c0okies]

Depending on the degree you pick, you will spend 3-6 years reading more than 2000 pages of judgments, commentary and legislation a year (say there are 50pages a week, times 20wks per semester, 2 semesters a year); rack up a very expensive HELP debt; beg lots of law firms to take you unpaid while you study; work from 6am to 3am as a graduate at a big law firm and "love" it there while your friendships disappear into nothing and your family/partner resents you for never being around

And finally, many years later spent sleeping and eating at the firm with lots of money in your bank account because you have no time or life to spend it because of work, you become a partner/barrister/judge whatever

.. thats just worst case scenario. It might not be so bad. So if you don't mind all that and still love the law, cool beans.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

[such_such]

Have a read of the threads of people who dropped law and hated it (and talk to them) Your situation is pretty common I guess.

 

[neo o]

I'm not going to even read your initial post. The answer is no. The job market is shit, your colleagues will be shit, the pay is shit. If your parents are pressuring you to do law for the prestige tell them you're going to be a doctor. If you want to earn money and get out of university as quickly as possible, do a B COM and add a B SCI for some maths, if that's your thing.

 

[Willow129]

Here's a good article I found on what it's like for a grad in corporate law: http://thefootnotes.com.au/the-real-corporate-law-career/

Of course there are lots of different law avenues, but this is a pretty insightful guide into what you can expect!

 

[emilios]

Something that really irks me about medicine is this "do or die" mentality. I understand that to truly want to become a doctor, you have to have a burning desire to genuinely want to help people with their problems. What I don't understand is why everyone is jumping at this kid just because he's thinking of a plan B. Skip to about 41:50 in this video given by a UNSW MEDICINE INTERVIEWER http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzmNQLO4v9w . He basically says that when the "What is your plan B" question is asked, they're really not looking for you to give the generic "Do Med Sci look to transfer in or do GAMSAT" response. In fact, I think they'd better appreciate it if you said something else (e.g. Engineering) and were able to justify it and link it to your interests (problem solving, collaborating and working in a team environment to acheive a larger goal etc.).

You know, it actually is possible for people to have more than 1 interest. It's unfair to say that if someone doesn't dedicate 100% of their efforts into getting into medicine, they are not suited to the career. Forget the starry eyed rhetoric - a good doctor is pragmatic. Say if someone doesn't do as well in the UMAT as they would like to, do they just then jump straight into a Med Sci degree? What if they don't get into med post-grad? The statistics tell us that the vast majority of applicants don't get into medicine. If they can't get in then they're left with a degree that's hardly employable. And shit man, people need to make a living.

I'd genuinely believe this guy has multiple interests and isn't just in it for the money or prestige. I do debating myself and I've met lots of good natured people that tell me they want to get into medicine, but I can appreciate their outspoken nature and the passion they have for discussion about the world around them, current affairs and issues etc. Are they money grabbers too because if they don't make med they're most likely going to go on to do law?

 

[Futuremedstudent]

Something that really irks me about medicine is this "do or die" mentality. I understand that to truly want to become a doctor, you have to have a burning desire to genuinely want to help people with their problems. What I don't understand is why everyone is jumping at this kid just because he's thinking of a plan B. Skip to about 41:50 in this video given by a UNSW MEDICINE INTERVIEWER http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzmNQLO4v9w . He basically says that when the "What is your plan B" question is asked, they're really not looking for you to give the generic "Do Med Sci look to transfer in or do GAMSAT" response. In fact, I think they'd better appreciate it if you said something else (e.g. Engineering) and were able to justify it and link it to your interests (problem solving, collaborating and working in a team environment to acheive a larger goal etc.).

You know, it actually is possible for people to have more than 1 interest. It's unfair to say that if someone doesn't dedicate 100% of their efforts into getting into medicine, they are not suited to the career. Forget the starry eyed rhetoric - a good doctor is pragmatic. Say if someone doesn't do as well in the UMAT as they would like to, do they just then jump straight into a Med Sci degree? What if they don't get into med post-grad? The statistics tell us that the vast majority of applicants don't get into medicine. If they can't get in then they're left with a degree that's hardly employable. And shit man, people need to make a living.

I'd genuinely believe this guy has multiple interests and isn't just in it for the money or prestige. I do debating myself and I've met lots of good natured people that tell me they want to get into medicine, but I can appreciate their outspoken nature and the passion they have for discussion about the world around them, current affairs and issues etc. Are they money grabbers too because if they don't make med they're most likely going to go on to do law?

I agree with you 150% on this