Are you comfortable with 24/7 Government Surveillance? (2 Viewers)

[seventhroot]

Re: Congratulations, we have lost our freedom.

Naivety is what caused a totalitarian society in those two texts I mentioned. There will always be a 'greater good' available. Hundreds die from car-crashes every year, the 'greater good' in that scenario is to install fat bumpers on all cars. Unnecessary however. Just like the fact that it is extremely unlikely for a terrorist attack to occur, but restrict our freedom because of it and give a mysterious company the power to legally spy and torture suspects? I don't really understand the severity of this bill but I know it's dangerous

hundreds of people die every year from car accidents and what not yes, unfortunately. but how many die in a terrorist attack? hundreds at a time and if there is a way to foresee this; that would be good (with a machine ). No-one can really foresee car accidents until it is about to happen, but cherry-picking here, need regular maintenance; servicing, etc. iirc about 30 people somehow die from choking on pens; what can we do here? make everyone use a pencil?

A terrorist attack is more likely to occur now more than ever. We have the G20 coming up soon where the worlds leaders are going to be in a single room together. Even so; ISIS has named Australia and we have seen many attacks since then

If abuse isn't common in ASIO, then why do they require protection from civil and criminal liability?
Actually, how even will the first four dot points help fight against terrorism?

let us consider a random scenarios with parallel crimes that may "need" to be committed

they get intelligence of some terrorist plot - need to wiretap/log communications/surveillance/etc

said intelligence says they are have plans at X location - do they need to wait for a warrant or should they just trespass in? if they find nothing; they leave or take appropriate action

X plans reveal they have more hideouts and it is time critical - again do they wait for warrants and go through proper channels or do we send in out military to raid the place?

some assassin is rushing across town to kill this terrorist but had to run red lights and speed and damages some property along the way - do we stop him?

these people were questioned and one ratted out that is friend is going to blow up X landmark (but he is unarmed) - does the secret assassin agent have to wait for proper documents or can he pull the trigger then and there?

Hopefully you can see; they do need some sort protection from civil and criminal liability. These are crimes of necessity //not a law student so not sure if I am using it right

#goldmedalistdebater

 

[FlyingKanga]

Re: Congratulations, we have lost our freedom.

hundreds of people die every year from car accidents and what not yes, unfortunately. but how many die in a terrorist attack? hundreds at a time and if there is a way to foresee this; that would be good (with a machine ). No-one can really foresee car accidents until it is about to happen, but cherry-picking here, need regular maintenance; servicing, etc. iirc about 30 people somehow die from choking on pens; what can we do here? make everyone use a pencil?

A terrorist attack is more likely to occur now more than ever. We have the G20 coming up soon where the worlds leaders are going to be in a single room together. Even so; ISIS has named Australia and we have seen many attacks since then

You're ignoring the fact that there hasn't been a single terrorist attack on Australian soil. What 'attacks since then' are you referring to? Our border patrol and customs is one of the most strictest out there. Foreign invaders are most likely not a threat; this is an internal threat that the government is emphasizing in order to spy on their own citizens and speculatively, allow them to stay in power. The majority of us do not want a religious war, in fact a lot of damage is being inflicted towards us. ISIS is motivating EXTREMELY few people in Australia. If you watch the video in that link, even the Grand Mufti of Australia spoke out denouncing the group.

let us consider a random scenarios with parallel crimes that may "need" to be committed

they get intelligence of some terrorist plot - need to wiretap/log communications/surveillance/etc

said intelligence says they are have plans at X location - do they need to wait for a warrant or should they just trespass in? if they find nothing; they leave or take appropriate action

X plans reveal they have more hideouts and it is time critical - again do they wait for warrants and go through proper channels or do we send in out military to raid the place?

some assassin is rushing across town to kill this terrorist but had to run red lights and speed and damages some property along the way - do we stop him?

these people were questioned and one ratted out that is friend is going to blow up X landmark (but he is unarmed) - does the secret assassin agent have to wait for proper documents or can he pull the trigger then and there?

Hopefully you can see; they do need some sort protection from civil and criminal liability. These are crimes of necessity //not a law student so not sure if I am using it right

I'll come back to you on this one, I don't understand this area too well however the silencing of journalists and the modification of data is not an aspect which will assist in finding terrorists.

#HardcoreMathDebator

id give up those freedoms if it meant we were free of the bondage of islam.

If you have nothing of the slightest worth to say, leave.

 

[FlyingKanga]

Re: Congratulations, we have lost our freedom.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/ten-steps-to-close-down-a_b_46695.html
These are correlating really well with Australia' current path.

 

[seventhroot]

Re: Congratulations, we have lost our freedom.

You're ignoring the fact that there hasn't been a single terrorist attack on Australian soil. What 'attacks since then' are you referring to? Our border patrol and customs is one of the most strictest out there. Foreign invaders are most likely not a threat; this is an internal threat that the government is emphasizing in order to spy on their own citizens and speculatively, allow them to stay in power. The majority of us do not want a religious war, in fact a lot of damage is being inflicted towards us. ISIS is motivating EXTREMELY few people in Australia. If you watch the video in that link, even the Grand Mufti of Australia spoke out denouncing the group.

I'll answer in dot-points cos I can't english/10

- I am not ignoring that fact; I am saying it is more likely because of the recent developments
- by those attacks since then; I mean the person who came into a school armed with malicious intentions; the ADF member who was attacked, etc
- no not really that strict. what do we really have? metal detector at one checkpoint? lel. can easily slip a ceramic knife or something through there.
- yes but those few people can cause huge damage

I think you're a little too paranoid, only the fittest survive

but think of it like this -> how do you get on the police radar? you're doing something very shady. I am in the ~ fare evasion master race ~ but haven't been picked up once but I can almost certaintly guatantee if I start buying chemical weapons and explosives; I will be on their radar

I'll come back to you on this one, I don't understand this area too well however the silencing of journalists and the modification of data is not an aspect which will assist in finding terrorists.

#HardcoreMathDebator

nws

maybe this scenario can help be of assistance?

- terrorist have some sort of a shared network and ASIO/other agencies need access to them

the popo sometimes use something called a "controlled delivery". So what this is essentially; for example; they find millions of $$ of cocaine. They replace the cocaine with baby power/flower/whatever and send it on it's way. they can do the same thing with data; say they intercept an email "hey meet at X location" but they change to "meet at Y location" and then arrest him

If you have nothing of the slightest worth to say, leave.

one thing we can agree on

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/ten-steps-to-close-down-a_b_46695.html
These are correlating really well with Australia' current path.

tbh; can't read that good but I read the dotpoints

if Australia were to enter into something like a dictatorship; then firstly there will be some sort of resistance by the citizens (us) and other countries will see it and hopefully america will send some of their super hornets and destroyers to save us

 

[SylviaB]

Re: Congratulations, we have lost our freedom.

I don't necessarily support it but do they have a jot of evidence justifying the claim "it won't make us any safer"?

 

[Gary_Oak]

Re: Congratulations, we have lost our freedom.

You're ignoring the fact that there hasn't been a single terrorist attack on Australian soil. What 'attacks since then' are you referring to? Our border patrol and customs is one of the most strictest out there. Foreign invaders are most likely not a threat; this is an internal threat that the government is emphasizing in order to spy on their own citizens and speculatively, allow them to stay in power. The majority of us do not want a religious war, in fact a lot of damage is being inflicted towards us. ISIS is motivating EXTREMELY few people in Australia. If you watch the video in that link, even the Grand Mufti of Australia spoke out denouncing the group.

I just hope those extremist target you and your greenie/PC mates..... Even though they are quite small..... they could make a huge dent (aka blow up something, or if they are desperate, have 20 of those nutter going around stabbing people)

Even though were pretty strict..... we can always do better....

 

[SylviaB]

Re: Congratulations, we have lost our freedom.

You're ignoring the fact that there hasn't been a single terrorist attack on Australian soil.

Right, because the government has managed to stop them.

ISIS is motivating EXTREMELY few people in Australia.

Only (At least) dozens of people being motivated by an insane murderous group is nothing to be proud of.

If you watch the video in that link, even the Grand Mufti of Australia spoke out denouncing the group.

The grand mufti of australia doesn't express public support for the most extreme islamic group in the world.

That certainly proves a whole lot!

 

[SylviaB]

Re: Congratulations, we have lost our freedom.

Muslims complaining about 'freedom' when they literally support laws banning anti-Islamic blasphemy

 

[isildurrrr1]

Re: Congratulations, we have lost our freedom.

- if you're not a terrorist; you have nothing to worry about
- compromise national security and you should be jailed or at the very least be thrown in some deep dark hole
- again; compromise national security and you deserved to be shot down by drones
- they need to do they job properly. It is not the first agency to have exemptions. example; AFP have immunity when carrying out some operations
- something like a system? . again don't be a terrorist; who cares if they read a few of your text messages. what are you doing? buying C4?

The new laws don't really change shit. Spooks usually do whatever the fuck they want, they just don't get caught doing it. ASIO is a fucking spy agency, they don't exactly publicly state "hey guys were gonna arrest these peeps ok." Only thing I disagree with is the jailing of journalists unless its an ongoing operation that would put lives at risk. Some docs are classified for the sake of being classified. This is why we have freedom of information requests. Identifying ASIO/ASIS officers is already a criminal offence lol and the only way to get any info on operations is if someone inside is leaking shit out.

Metadata collection as a form of intelligence gathering is a gigantic waste of time and money. Humanit and classic surveillance tactics work much much better. Sifting through petabytes of data isn't going to help much. Most of AQ guys are smart enough not to fucking use the internet for actual operation plans. You announce "hey were gonna collect all this internatz data" they go "oh i should stop using internatz."

 

[isildurrrr1]

Re: Congratulations, we have lost our freedom.

hundreds of people die every year from car accidents and what not yes, unfortunately. but how many die in a terrorist attack? hundreds at a time and if there is a way to foresee this; that would be good (with a machine ). No-one can really foresee car accidents until it is about to happen, but cherry-picking here, need regular maintenance; servicing, etc. iirc about 30 people somehow die from choking on pens; what can we do here? make everyone use a pencil?

A terrorist attack is more likely to occur now more than ever. We have the G20 coming up soon where the worlds leaders are going to be in a single room together. Even so; ISIS has named Australia and we have seen many attacks since then


let us consider a random scenarios with parallel crimes that may "need" to be committed

they get intelligence of some terrorist plot - need to wiretap/log communications/surveillance/etc

said intelligence says they are have plans at X location - do they need to wait for a warrant or should they just trespass in? if they find nothing; they leave or take appropriate action

X plans reveal they have more hideouts and it is time critical - again do they wait for warrants and go through proper channels or do we send in out military to raid the place?

some assassin is rushing across town to kill this terrorist but had to run red lights and speed and damages some property along the way - do we stop him?

these people were questioned and one ratted out that is friend is going to blow up X landmark (but he is unarmed) - does the secret assassin agent have to wait for proper documents or can he pull the trigger then and there?

Hopefully you can see; they do need some sort protection from civil and criminal liability. These are crimes of necessity //not a law student so not sure if I am using it right

#goldmedalistdebater

You watched way way way too much 24.

And we don't legally have "assassins" doing wetwork on Aussie soil because we don't do targeted killings, also there's no such thing as a "lone assassin" type like Jason Bourne, everyone works with a huge team with at least 10 people. Shit like this will bring down a government here in aus. The life of a spook isn't as exciting in Australia, most of it is desk analyst jobs.

There are some things called an open warrant where cops can search everything and is active for a certain time period, so it really kills your "oh we need to get a warrant for this guy time period." We were able to stop things before without these laws, I'm sure we can stop things now.

 

[isildurrrr1]

Re: Congratulations, we have lost our freedom.

Right, because the government has managed to stop them.
!

Australian's get targeted overseas a lot more than domestically, think Bali, Singapore plot, Malaysia, Marriot hotel plots etc. It's just MUCH MUCH harder to carry out attacks here because were a small country easy to keep tabs on insurgents, they don't exactly blend in here and we got good intelligence ops.

Our biggest threat previously was Jamaya Islamiya and Abu Sayyef and they carried out attacks targeting aussies as well.

 

[wannaspoon]

Re: Congratulations, we have lost our freedom.

God help us...

lol @ ASIO having the powers to access information and plant information on your computer... totally not going to be misused for the purposes of securing a conviction...

ASIO is going to love my porn stash...

 

[faisalabdul16]

Re: Congratulations, we have lost our freedom.

- if you're not a terrorist; you have nothing to worry about
- compromise national security and you should be jailed or at the very least be thrown in some deep dark hole
- again; compromise national security and you deserved to be shot down by drones
- they need to do they job properly. It is not the first agency to have exemptions. example; AFP have immunity when carrying out some operations
- something like a system? . again don't be a terrorist; who cares if they read a few of your text messages. what are you doing? buying C4?

exactly!

 

[BLIT2014]

Re: Congratulations, we have lost our freedom.

That's suggesting we even had freedom in the first place.

 

[faisalabdul16]

Re: Congratulations, we have lost our freedom.

ASIO is just trying to keep Australians safe and i reckon they should be able to at all means necessary.

 

[Fade1233]

I have nothing much to hide so yeh dont even care and its not like they will stay just to see what each individual person is doing.

 

[isildurrrr1]

Re: Congratulations, we have lost our freedom.

ASIO is just trying to keep Australians safe and i reckon they should be able to at all means necessary.

you do realize spooks have been caught just looking at peoples personal stuff for shits and giggles right?

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/27/politics/nsa-snooping/

 

[seventhroot]

Re: Congratulations, we have lost our freedom.

I don't necessarily support it but do they have a jot of evidence justifying the claim "it won't make us any safer"?

maybe it is but the details are classified or something so the public can't view them?

just a thought

The new laws don't really change shit. Spooks usually do whatever the fuck they want, they just don't get caught doing it. ASIO is a fucking spy agency, they don't exactly publicly state "hey guys were gonna arrest these peeps ok." Only thing I disagree with is the jailing of journalists unless its an ongoing operation that would put lives at risk. Some docs are classified for the sake of being classified. This is why we have freedom of information requests. Identifying ASIO/ASIS officers is already a criminal offence lol and the only way to get any info on operations is if someone inside is leaking shit out.

maybe this is a way to make sure the law is not abstract or unclear?

Metadata collection as a form of intelligence gathering is a gigantic waste of time and money. Humanit and classic surveillance tactics work much much better. Sifting through petabytes of data isn't going to help much. Most of AQ guys are smart enough not to fucking use the internet for actual operation plans. You announce "hey were gonna collect all this internatz data" they go "oh i should stop using internatz."

it might help a little bit; which could be the difference

I doubt it would be one guy or maybe a few that are sifting through the data; but maybe they already built something that analyses "all the data" and finds connections between them. The time is now; computers can do this today

You watched way way way too much burn notice

And we don't legally have "assassins" doing wetwork on Aussie soil because we don't do targeted killings, also there's no such thing as a "lone assassin" type like Jason Bourne, everyone works with a huge team with at least 10 people. Shit like this will bring down a government here in aus. The life of a spook isn't as exciting in Australia, most of it is desk analyst jobs.

how do you know so much about this?

There are some things called an open warrant where cops can search everything and is active for a certain time period, so it really kills your "oh we need to get a warrant for this guy time period." We were able to stop things before without these laws, I'm sure we can stop things now.

this could be a way to reduce red tape. I am sure getting one of those "open warrants" takes time, needs a magistrate, approval, etc /*I don't know I am not a law student*/ so this could be a way to get one green light and then kill some terrorist

That's suggesting we even had freedom in the first place.

yes to an extent; governments can do whatever they want

ASIO is just trying to keep Australians safe and i reckon they should be able to at all means necessary.

I have nothing much to hide so yeh dont even care and its not like they will stay just to see what each individual person is doing.

yeah this; they won't target you specifically. What makes you think you're so special?

you do realize spooks have been caught just looking at peoples personal stuff for shits and giggles right?

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/27/politics/nsa-snooping/

12 people from the video iirc.

according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency (yes wikipedia lol) there are 30-40K employees. that's ~0.05%

I assume they would have been punished as well

 

[RenegadeMx]

hope the government enjoys the porn i watch

 

[seventhroot]

hope the government enjoys the porn i watch

probably remotely watching what you're watching just to be sure you're not a terrorist