Zelenski and Trump debate :0

[Bendwhat?_over]

sing me a lullaby pls

Are you alright...???

 

[Socialism]

Are you alright...???

lol cuz sylvia told me to go to sleep and i thought i was being called naive

as opposed to... apparently being told i'm getting put down

 

[Bendwhat?_over]

lol cuz sylvia told me to go to sleep and i thought i was being called naive

as opposed to... apparently being told i'm getting put down

That's not what I was referring to.

 

[Socialism]

That's not what I was referring to.

ummmmm

 

[SylviaB]

I don’t think the U.S.’s global leadership is just transactional. It's the worlds biggest economy, its soft power attracts foreign investment and gives it a major edge in trade negotiations.

Firstly, the transactional nature applies to Europe too. They don't follow America due to "shared values" - it's in their interest to do so, so they do.

Secondly, people invest in the US due to their economy, not their soft power.

Countries want to do business with the U.S. because of its stability, influence, and reliability.

None of which has anything to do with endless and unconditional aid for ukraine.

Abandoning allies

"Abandoning allies" = Not giving unlimited, unconditional support to a non-ally

or pushing tariffs makes the U.S. seem unreliable, which can hurt its long-term economic interests by driving away investment and creating uncertainty.

From an economic standpoint, the best way to counter rivals like China or Russia is by staying a reliable leader in global markets.

Nope, wrong, dead wrong. The status quo you're clinging to is precisely what has lead to the rise of the China and the substantial, long-term decline of the US. The same people who bush this boomer talking point were the ones absolutely convinced that China would be a liberal democracy by now and they were wrong, so any further predictions from people with this model of the world should be discarded. And the US is already a leader in global markets - that's done precious little to actually stop Russia.

My hottest of takes is Ive never believed that China would overtake the US economy simply because a) The capitalist system is has is always going to perform better long-term vs a communist system

They have a market based economy

and b) the US has a reputation for reliability built over 80 years. Now Im not so sure, because if China can occupy the space the US is leaving behind maybe they could.

You can't be serious.

China?

China, the country that waged a trade war against Australia because our prime minister called for an investigation into the origins of covid?

A country that itself makes extensive use of trade restrictions, requires companies to open factories in china to be able to sell to china, steals US intellectual property along with a smorgasbord of other unfair trade and commerical practices?

A country that disappears and disenfranchises it's own CEOs for saying anything critical about the Chinese government?

A country whose government subsidises the production of chemicals used to make fentanyl to help fuel drug crises?

You're predicting that because the US engages in tariffs and doesn't support limitless, unconditional financial and military aid to a country it has nothing to do with (legitimately), a country with extremely unfair trade practices, political censorship and the biggest supporter or Russia is going to take America's place?

Come on dude.

I think it's a fair deal for peace, but Russia needs to come up with some concessions to, like maybe allowing the Ukraine to join the EU or an investment in rebuilding Ukraine in partnership with the EU etc.

They don't "need" to do anything. They're not begging for a peace deal, it's Ukraine begging Russia to leave. I'm not saying Ukraine should accept any given deal, but they can't afford to be demanding the stuff they're demanding.

The critical minerals deal is a waste for the US, Ukraine currently doesn't mine a lot of that stuff and its material value is unclear.

Their reserves are what is valuable, not their current mining operations: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20le8jn282o

And how is it a waste? The alternative is aid with no minerals.

 

[enoilgam]

Nope, wrong, dead wrong. The status quo you're clinging to is precisely what has lead to the rise of the China and the substantial, long-term decline of the US. The same people who bush this boomer talking point were the ones absolutely convinced that China would be a liberal democracy by now and they were wrong, so any further predictions from people with this model of the world should be discarded. And the US is already a leader in global markets - that's done precious little to actually stop Russia.

The status quo might not be perfect, but blowing it up by being crass towards Allies and levying tariffs against Allies isn't going to make America Great Again. It's the wrong solution to the right problem (story of Donald Trump tbh). The US has mishandled foreign policy traditionally when it has gotten directly involved. The US wants to reverse that trend which is probably a good idea. All they have to do is say to Nato, we want to pull back and you to take over, this is how we will support you to do so.

You're predicting that because the US engages in tariffs and doesn't support limitless, unconditional financial and military aid to a country it has nothing to do with (legitimately), a country with extremely unfair trade practices, political censorship and the biggest supporter or Russia is going to take America's place?

Come on dude.

I mean, if the world becomes as transactional as you say, China can move into that space if they play their cards right. You have a very right wing view of the world, but not everyone else does. Some people may eventually see China as really not that much worse than the US. In that case, China fills the space. China, when they arent going all wolf warrior can be quite good with the realpolitik at times.

As I said, you look at the world through a distinctly right wing lens. I look at the world based on my career in government - Im a details/relationships/practical person (Im also in HR, so dealing diplomatically with fiery personalities and conflicts is my lens as well). Ive seen governments/Ministers come and go of different political persuasions and the best ones I worked for weren't right or left, they were the ones that grasped the details. With the US at the moment, I see a lot of posturing and point scoring but not much in the way of a workable, effective plan.

 

[SylviaB]

The status quo might not be perfect, but blowing it up by being crass towards Allies and levying tariffs against Allies isn't going to make America Great Again.

Again, Ukraine isn't an ally, and as for the rest of Europe, again, they were insultingly and constantly critical of Trump constantly for the best part of the past 8 years. If they can't take it back, then the status quo was too fragile to ever be maintained in the first place.

It's the wrong solution to the right problem (story of Donald Trump tbh). The US has mishandled foreign policy traditionally when it has gotten directly involved. The US wants to reverse that trend which is probably a good idea. All they have to do is say to Nato, we want to pull back and you to take over, this is how we will support you to do so.

The US is NATO.

I mean, if the world becomes as transactional as you say, China can move into that space if they play their cards right. You have a very right wing view of the world, but not everyone else does. Some people may eventually see China as really not that much worse than the US.

Again, this is so insane.

People are freaking out because Trump isn't being anti-Russia enough, and the end result is they become close to...Russia's closest ally. Absurd shit.

In that case, China fills the space. China, when they arent going all wolf warrior can be quite good with the realpolitik at times.

Fills the space with what? The "space" is US military protection. That's it. China is not going to militarily protect Europe from Russia. And even if it's economy, why would anyone invest in China instead of the US? They're not more stable or reliable - they were engaging in the kind of punitive trade policies you're so furiously condemning Trump for!

People are abandoning the US because Trump isn't anti-Russia -> They're moving towards Russia's closest major ally instead

People are abandoning the US because of Trump's tariffs -> They're moving towards a country with a much greater perchant for unfair and putinitive trade practices

Completely incoherent


What's actually happening right now is that people are hysterically freaking out and throwing a tantrum the very instant that the US doesn't do everything that they demanding it does and have convinced themselves they can get on without the US. But once they realise that there is not alternative and all their pledges to defend Ukraine are worthless without the US, they will come back around because they have no other choice.

As I said, you look at the world through a distinctly right wing lens. I look at the world based on my career in government - Im a details/relationships/practical person (Im also in HR, so dealing diplomatically with fiery personalities and conflicts is my lens as well). Ive seen governments/Ministers come and go of different political persuasions and the best ones I worked for weren't right or left, they were the ones that grasped the details. With the US at the moment, I see a lot of posturing and point scoring but not much in the way of a workable, effective plan.

YOUR way has resulted in the long-term decline of countries like the US. People are freaking out about Trump because he's a president who has stopped the government putting American interests last.

And nobody against Trump has a workable effective plan for Ukraine. Nobody. They've deluded themselves into thinking that another $100 billion of weapons is going to result in Ukraine's military victory despite being wrong about literally ever single prediction they ever made about this war.

Trump is the one who actually sees the writing on the wall, that this war can't end without Ukraine making a peace deal with Russia. And Ukraine is unlikely to be in a better bargaining position in a year or two's time than they are today (and can't afford to send another 100,000 men to their death).

 

[SylviaB]

Trump has secured $1.7 trillion in private sector investment already, more than Biden did in four years

And your argument is that if he doesn't kowtow to zelenskyy, nobody will invest in the US? Ridiculous

 

[enoilgam]

Fills the space with what? The "space" is US military protection. That's it. China is not going to militarily protect Europe from Russia. And even if it's economy, why would anyone invest in China instead of the US? They're not more stable or reliable - they were engaging in the kind of punitive trade policies you're so furiously condemning Trump for!

People are abandoning the US because Trump isn't anti-Russia -> They're moving towards Russia's closest major ally instead

People are abandoning the US because of Trump's tariffs -> They're moving towards a country with a much greater perchant for unfair and putinitive trade practices

Completely incoherent

Im saying China can fill the space as a trading partner, as a military partner no, but if the US is backing out from its commitment to Allies then most countries will back their own military. If China sees the US imposing tariffs and being "unreliable", China can move in an offer more favourable trading terms. This is where your bias comes in, you see China as unreliable, but other governments who don't share your view may start to change their perception of the US and China. That's where the damage happens. Just because you think its stupid (I dont think you are wrong), doesnt mean it wont happen.

At the end of the day, the great leaders of America's "Golden Age" (FDR, Eisenhower, Nixon, LBJ and even Reagan) would never have gone down this route. Donald Trump is trying to "Make America Great Again", but his tactics reflect nothing of what made America great to begin with. As a matter of fact, I seem to remember a period where America embraced isolationism and tariff led protectionism. That was the 30s and if memory serves correct, it wasnt a great time for the US. The golden age came about when America embraced its role as a leader of the world and projected its soft power (i.e. the 50s onwards). So there is a very valid argument there that Trump's ideas may not work.

To be clear my opinion is as follows, the War in Ukraine must end and Europe must do more for itself (there Mr Trump and I agree). Yelling at Zelensky in the Oval and generally being hostile to Allies, there we digress.

YOUR way has resulted in the long-term decline of countries like the US.

I dont have a way, Im just all about details. Im generally a centrist (except when I'm at work, there I do whatever the Government of the day requires), but from behind the scenes observation I think the best governments create policies with merit, adjust them for context and have a grasp of administrative details to carry them out. It's those details that separate good from bad to me even moreso than political ideology.

Going a bit off topic, but what most of the public dont realise is 90% of being in government is managing boring and mundane non-partisan crap most people dont think about. With Trump, I dont see him as being very good at that 90%.

 

[Ilikedrivingbymycarandthe]

I jumped into this forum bc I was bored and ppl r already debating lol.

tbh I use to somewhat share similar opinions to you, over the dependence of the world on the USA which is especially prevalent in terms of voting ( like when Europeans urge Americans to vote in light of European interests rather than what’s best for Americans).

However, I definitely do believe what Trump and JD Vance did to Zelensky was incredibly petty/rude + how they’ve treated EU countries is general. Don’t get me wrong, it’s great for the US to build a stronger relationship to Russia but calling Zelensky a “ dictator” and completely ignoring the kidnapping of Ukrainian children by the Russian government is absurd. Putin’s justification for the war is also terrible too—> it would make sense ( but not justifiable) if he was still arguing about past treaties/ Russia being threatened as they wanted Ukraine as a buffer state to stop NATO expansionism as they previously signed a treaty on that regard with the US/ which was ignored by the US. Instead recently Putin’s has been yapping about Ukraine being Russian territory since who know when- some revanchist delusion that rlly ruins any credibility in Ukraine’s invasion.


Trump could definitely make a peace deal work with Ukraine and Russia- but he simply favours Putin’s to much to prioritise Ukraine’s interests and the EU’s interest which he should as they are the USA’s allies ( NOT Russia). The argument that happened in the Whitehouse was petty and just flat out bullying tbh. Trump in particular ( who’s prioritising the American ppl as he says) should do more research before he passes new laws + speaks in general as the EU/ other western countries like Australia r honestly the realest allies of the US who generally stick and support them regardless. If Trump pushes them away/ disrespects them to much—> not only will they become more self-reliant but will also grow in trade with China ( which is bad for the US). The US is a world power ( in trade + military) but nearly half of that is thanks to the support EU/ their allies give—> which really shouldn’t be disregarded.

Trump has some “ good” intentions but fails the experience and knowledge to execute them and isn’t willing to educate himself to make better decisions ( not only hurting the USA’s stance in the global economy but the US people as well). + Elon Musk’s hyper-involvement in US government despite his clear idiocy is killing me

- did want to note that the only reason Ukraine was invaded by Russia in the first place was bc of the US, so it’s pretty shallow that they’re ditching Ukraine now.

Again, Ukraine isn't an ally, and as for the rest of Europe, again, they were insultingly and constantly critical of Trump constantly for the best part of the past 8 years. If they can't take it back, then the status quo was too fragile to ever be maintained in the first place.



The US is NATO.



Again, this is so insane.

People are freaking out because Trump isn't being anti-Russia enough, and the end result is they become close to...Russia's closest ally. Absurd shit.



Fills the space with what? The "space" is US military protection. That's it. China is not going to militarily protect Europe from Russia. And even if it's economy, why would anyone invest in China instead of the US? They're not more stable or reliable - they were engaging in the kind of punitive trade policies you're so furiously condemning Trump for!

People are abandoning the US because Trump isn't anti-Russia -> They're moving towards Russia's closest major ally instead

People are abandoning the US because of Trump's tariffs -> They're moving towards a country with a much greater perchant for unfair and putinitive trade practices

Completely incoherent


What's actually happening right now is that people are hysterically freaking out and throwing a tantrum the very instant that the US doesn't do everything that they demanding it does and have convinced themselves they can get on without the US. But once they realise that there is not alternative and all their pledges to defend Ukraine are worthless without the US, they will come back around because they have no other choice.



YOUR way has resulted in the long-term decline of countries like the US. People are freaking out about Trump because he's a president who has stopped the government putting American interests last.

And nobody against Trump has a workable effective plan for Ukraine. Nobody. They've deluded themselves into thinking that another $100 billion of weapons is going to result in Ukraine's military victory despite being wrong about literally ever single prediction they ever made about this war.

Trump is the one who actually sees the writing on the wall, that this war can't end without Ukraine making a peace deal with Russia. And Ukraine is unlikely to be in a better bargaining position in a year or two's time than they are today (and can't afford to send another 100,000 men to their death).

 

[Ilikedrivingbymycarandthe]

Im saying China can fill the space as a trading partner, as a military partner no, but if the US is backing out from its commitment to Allies then most countries will back their own military. If China sees the US imposing tariffs and being "unreliable", China can move in an offer more favourable trading terms. This is where your bias comes in, you see China as unreliable, but other governments who don't share your view may start to change their perception of the US and China. That's where the damage happens. Just because you think its stupid (I dont think you are wrong), doesnt mean it wont happen.

At the end of the day, the great leaders of America's "Golden Age" (FDR, Eisenhower, Nixon, LBJ and even Reagan) would never have gone down this route. Donald Trump is trying to "Make America Great Again", but his tactics reflect nothing of what made America great to begin with. As a matter of fact, I seem to remember a period where America embraced isolationism and tariff led protectionism. That was the 30s and if memory serves correct, it wasnt a great time for the US. The golden age came about when America embraced its role as a leader of the world and projected its soft power (i.e. the 50s onwards). So there is a very valid argument there that Trump's ideas may not work.

To be clear my opinion is as follows, the War in Ukraine must end and Europe must do more for itself (there Mr Trump and I agree). Yelling at Zelensky in the Oval and generally being hostile to Allies, there we digress.



I dont have a way, Im just all about details. Im generally a centrist (except when I'm at work, there I do whatever the Government of the day requires), but from behind the scenes observation I think the best governments create policies with merit, adjust them for context and have a grasp of administrative details to carry them out. It's those details that separate good from bad to me even moreso than political ideology.

Going a bit off topic, but what most of the public dont realise is 90% of being in government is managing boring and mundane non-partisan crap most people dont think about. With Trump, I dont see him as being very good at that 90%.

Totally support, especially the off topic part - its why he’s been passing/doing so many crazy stuff without fact checking lol

 

[enoilgam]

Totally support, especially the off topic part - its why he’s been passing/doing so many crazy stuff without fact checking lol

Since you mentioned it, I have to bring it up, maybe to lighten the mood, but did you know the NSW Government has an agency called "Cemeteries and Crematoria NSW". It's role, as the name implies is to have oversight of those who provide post-death services in NSW and ensure the state has enough space for the dead. Guaranteed to stir the loins of partisan politics in NSW. I have joked to a few managers over the years that I would like to pursue development opportunities in that space.

 

[Ilikedrivingbymycarandthe]

Since you mentioned it, I have to bring it up, maybe to lighten the mood, but did you know the NSW Government has an agency called "Cemeteries and Crematoria NSW". It's role, as the name implies is to have oversight of those who provide post-death services in NSW and ensure the state has enough space for the dead. Guaranteed to stir the loins of partisan politics in NSW.

Hahaha omg. I didn’t know that lol. I’m looking forward to this year’s election- the dynamic between Dutton and Albanese is pure gold. Super off topic but had to be said