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Abortion debate (1 Viewer)

Abortion debate

  • Abortion illegalised

    Votes: 51 19.8%
  • Tougher laws

    Votes: 35 13.6%
  • Keep current laws

    Votes: 155 60.1%
  • don't care

    Votes: 17 6.6%

  • Total voters
    258
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loquasagacious

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Junky and spirits it is not a similar application of logic as it is looking from the wrong perspective. Junky's suggestion is that we should allow murders and not punish them - clearly a bad thing. This however differs wildly from my application, differences that are easily enough demonstrated. For instance my logic applied to Junky's scenario would read more like:

It is better that we allow people to choose whether or not to murder* rather either locking everyone up in seperate cells to stop all murder or forcing everyone to murder everyone else.

*That is like any choice weigh up the pros and cons - which naturally enough differ from case to case. And I stress that this is the same process as choosing whether to abort a pregnancy, be in a union or eat a cheeseburger.

Convinced?
 

Phanatical

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For some, there is no difference between a second trimester abortion and a 32nd trimester abortion. "If you don't vote, you're not a person". It's still murder, and society's obsession with instant abortion on demand is worrying, to say the least.
 

erawamai

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Phanatical said:
For some, there is no difference between a second trimester abortion and a 32nd trimester abortion. "If you don't vote, you're not a person". It's still murder, and society's obsession with instant abortion on demand is worrying, to say the least.
Mr Quah. Considering you have strong views on abortion what is your opinion on women getting compensation for the birth of a child (who happened to be handicapped) that occured because of the negligence of the doctor (failure to diagnose etc or to perform hyterectomy properly). Should the women be compensated for the birth of the child? Or should economic factors be irrelevant meaning the women is not compensated for the birth?
 

musik_junky

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Erawamai, you are missing the point. Its not the economic factor so much that is critical. Sure, that is a secondary condition, but the main thing is that the woman has paid the doctor to perform a service and he or she has been negligent.
 

erawamai

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You dont understand negligence do you?

I'll try one more time. Just for you. Even though I doubt it will get through.

General outline of negligence.

Neligence leads to damage or loss which the plaintiff (victim if you like) is compensated for.

The Negligence is the doctor failing to do something. For example failing to perform the hysterectony operation properly or giving bad contraceptive advice.

This negligence results in the birth of a child. This is the damage. or perhaps economic loss.

The women is then compensated for the damage or (economic) loss for the birth of the child.

When calculating the damages or compensation the court takes into account the amount it would cost to raise the child. Essentially economic factors

If economic status is irrelevant then the women should not be compensated as she has suffered no loss as a birth should never be characterised as a loss or damage. Right?

--------------

It is irrelevant whether the doctor performed the operation incorrectly. You cannot have negligence unless there is harm or damage. For example you can drive down a suburban street and 200kmph with your eyes closed. But if you dont hurt or kill anyone (lets just forget criminal law atm) then there is no negligence action because there has been no damage to anyone. There is no one to compensate.

You can jump up and down about how badly a doctor did a particular medical procedure but if no damage results there is negligence action. (Maybe you can sue them for breach of contract?)

For example if the doctor did do the hyterectomy badly and it was ineffective. If no damage results and no Harm is caused then there is no negligence action.
 
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Generator

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Senator Stott Despoja - column in The Advertiser 12/09/2005

Last week, we saw the first signs of the debate on womens reproductive rights that some conservative male Senators have been hanging out to have.

Some male National Party MPs broke ranks with their Coalition colleagues to oppose a motion calling for recognition of womens sexual and reproductive health services as part of the Millennium Development Goals to help end poverty and combat disease. Despite Government support for the motion, the vote was stopped by Senator Ron Boswell who claimed we were voting for abortion on demand.

It was a glimpse of things to come in the Senate.

Capping IVF funding; removal of Medicare funding for abortion; and, late term abortions have all been raised.

This debate is not about humanity or love or the best interests of children: it is about power over women.

[continues - see link]
An interesting piece.
 

erawamai

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Ru-486

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national...d/2005/09/11/1126377205232.html?oneclick=true

It's nice to know that our health minister is not interested in safer abortions.

I believe the objection to RU 486 (based on an assignment i did a few weeks ago) is that it can be used much like a 'month after pill' rather than any other grounds.

I don't see the reason why it should not be used in early stage abortion.

-------------http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/helthrpt/stories/s268.htm



As you understand certain groups get very upset.
 
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musik_junky

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Erawamai,

You are a funny person. Instead of just repeating something from a textbook you should show us how the information you are giving is relevant to the topic of abortion. Anyway, you STILL dont get what im saying. You are saying that economic factors are important in determining the amount of compensation. I am not disputing this. Anyway, who cares?? The only reason you are (unsuccessfully) nit picking on this one point is that you don't seem to have any real arguments pertaining to the original topic of this thread.
 

erawamai

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musik_junky said:
Erawamai,

You are a funny person. Instead of just repeating something from a textbook you should show us how the information you are giving is relevant to the topic of abortion.
Whether economic factors are taken into account in in determining whether an abortion is legal is very relevant.

Anyway, you STILL dont get what im saying. You are saying that economic factors are important in determining the amount of compensation. I am not disputing this.
I'm saying economic factors ARE THE REASON for the compensation.

Come on its not that hard. If you want compensation for a women who has HAD a baby because her doctor was negligent you are awarding money for the loss or damage a mother has suffered. The court is saying, when it awards such compensation, 'you have suffered a loss as a result of this birth here is your compensation. This is how much we think IT COSTS TO RAISE A CHILD'

WHY CAN'T MONEY AND SOCIO ECONOMIC STATUS BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT WHEN A WOMEN WANTS TO TERMINATE?

If economic status is irrelevant as a reason for a women terminate why should a court aware compensation to raise a child. Money is irrelevant.

Do you get it?

---------------------

The point is that you cant have it both ways. If you award a mother damages for 'wrongful birth' you have to allow economic status as a reason for termination. Otherwise the law is in a contradiction.

Or you do not include economic status as a reason for termination and you do not award money as compensation This is because money is irrelevant before birth as it is after.

How can economic status and cost of the raising of the child be irrelevant before birth but relevant after when the court awards damages?
 
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I'd like a "relax the laws, and let abortions be legally performed in corner shops and service stations" poll option.

To reply seriously, having done a little research, and having read portions of this thread, it seems to me that if anything I'd like to see abortion restrictions decreased in order to allow more freedom of choice. If someone doesn't want to give birth, and they are put in a situation where it's going to happen (Either through their own failings or someone else's), I don't see why intervention shouldn't be undertaken, providing this decision is made by someone in a reasonable state of mind with the appropriate information and counselling available, and providing that said intervention is undertaken in a way that is as safe as possible.

The argument that this is harsh on the unborn life, something which is of debated validity, seems to me to neglect the wellbeing of those who are *actually* alive, and as such has never really clicked with me. Aside from that, maybe it's just me, but if I had to choose between never being born (And quite possibly/probably never being aware that I existed [Or came close to existing, I'm not a sterilised egg so I can't really be sure on how it works]), and being born to a mother who was not prepared to be my mother, I tend to think that I'd lean towards never being born.

Out of interest, and I'm sorry if this has been explained somewhere earlier in the thread and I've missed it, where does the current stance on abortion stem from? Reading here and there I get the distinct impression that it's a religious remnant (Given the anti-abortion comments made so far this seems to be well founded), and if that's the case I would wonder at its place in legislation. Are there pros to the anti-abortion side of the debate which don't stem from religious beliefs or the preservation of (argued) lives? I agree that it's something that shouldn't be an every day affair, but more because of the fact that it's a moderately damaging thing to do for the individual, physically and emotionally, but see no reason to deny access to abortion for anyone who fully understands the procedure and makes an informed decision on the issue.
 
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katie_tully

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My arguments to date.

katie_tully said:
Laws wont be changed. It's open for debate, but that's as far as it will go. The only people supporting the motion for it to be illegal are fat, balding, middle aged men who see it as their duty to interfere with the lives of others.

Go find something better to do.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you eat eggs?

You do realise the only difference between a chicken embryo, and a human embryo is that the chicken egg will only produce a chicken if the egg is incubated. The human embryo needs a vessel (the mother) to grow.

Are you saying that women who choose to have an abortion are murderers?

It's people like you who need to stay out of this debate. Irrational extremists with no respect for the decisions and morality of other people.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seriously, it is beyond my comprehension how people percieve abortion.
It bewilders me even more that people put it down to irresponsible women not having protected sex, considering women with their tubes tied have often become pregnant.
It's further beyond my grasp as to why people have the audacity to say who is right and who is wrong when it comes to their own body, and their own life.
What really confuses me is that some people are under the impression their views are more correct than others, on a topic that, unless faced with this particular situation, does not concern them.

You don't believe in abortion? Good. Don't have one.
Don't dare criticise those who do, or feel that it is any of your business as to why people choose to have an abortion.
Definately do not feel you have the right to assume people who have an abortion are doing it lightly, and do not consider all the consequences.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is with you people and placing so much emphasis on an unborn fetus's "rights"?
What about the "rights" of a teenage/adult woman who has to not only decide whats best for her, but the child?

They're looking for a ban on late term abortions. Now, nobody can have late term abortions unless the fetus has a deformity detected. Who are these people to say a woman doesn't have the right to decide whether she wants to have a child who is possibly going to have a poor quality of life, or whether she wants to humanely terminate the fetus.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Keep in mind people, the fetus does not feel a thing. It is dead before it is extracted from the womb.
Because both a sperm and an egg are in fact incomplete halves of a human genome, they don't form life. That's why it's not murder every time a man has sex, masturbates or has a wet dream, or a woman ovulates once a month - because the genetic material is not in a state of growth. Once the sperm has fertilised the egg, however, it begins to develop into sentient life, and will continue to develop until the day it dies, hopefully as an old person. This is a simple biological fact, which every person here should have studied in junior school science.
Yet, you neglect to mention that as a fetus, up until 30 weeks, it cannot survive outside of the mothers womb, and only then can it survive under constant medical treatment.
You neglect to mention the rights of the woman, who, for whatever valid reason, does not feel they can carry on with an abortion.

You're placing the rights of an unborn fetus, before the rights of a person...And thats the most illogical argument I've seen in this entire debate.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The majority of abortions are undertaken by married women in their thirties, many of whom already have children. Professional, well educated women. Not these supre whores as you so eloquently put it.

It is a well documented fact that more teenagers are having babies these days, than they are abortions.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The statistics are there, they know the statistics.

If they didn't, they wouldnt have made the comment about "mature women being so silly as to get pregnant willy nilly".

I suggest you do your research...But then again, you're listening to what Boswell and Abott say...so maybe it's a hopeless project.

Boswell is asking for statistics, because like the rest of the ignorant population, he doesn't believe that teenagers only make up a small amount of all abortions undertaken.
A teenager has a child every three days in Australia.

Your generalisation of those who have abortions is both stupid and unfounded.

Boswell and Abott think if they can heap the abortion debate onto the immaturity of teenagers decisions, that they'll have a case, so of course they're going to clutch and straws.
Keep in mind their main basis for argument is purely religiously based, and they're only interested in keeping their moral belief system superior over the rights of women.

Accurate statistics that are going to what? Prove women have abortions?

The more I think about it, the less I feel this should have anything to do with the age of the person undertaking the abortion. But unfortunately, that's their half arsed argument as to why abortions need to be banned.

I'm not convinced it ever will be made illegal, because I can only imagine the fiasco it would cause.
 

erawamai

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I think Tully makes a decent argument ;)
 

Bibs

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As a male i accept that im more in the backseat on this one, but i do have to say that not all male views should be dismissed as patriachial (don't think it's spelt right) dominators intent on getting their own way. i think the issue of abortion is subjective to the nature of which the circumstance extends. i mean, if that child is destined to have a crap life because of it's surroundings and circumstances then why bring a child into that environment. But on the other hand, who are we to predict the thinkings of an unborn child and place limitations on it before it is even born. it is such an enourmous issue with infinte contradictions on the matter.
 

musik_junky

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You're placing the rights of an unborn fetus, before the rights of a person...
and you are placing someone's economic status before another person's life...
 
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katie_tully

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musik_junky said:
and you are placing someone's economic status before another person's life...
No. I'm placing the rights of the mother over the "rights" of an unborn fetus. Stop refering to it as another persons life, because it isnt. The fetus relies on the mother for life, stop thinking of the mother as simply a vessel.
 

musik_junky

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what kind of sick person told you that? On one hand you have someone's financial position, and on the other hand you have someone's life.
 

Generator

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musik_junky said:
what kind of sick person told you that? On one hand you have someone's financial position, and on the other hand you have someone's life.
Ah, 'sick person'? Katie's post is hardly one that is the work of a sick person, junky, it's just that her position regarding whether a foetus may be considered as being a person differs to your own. There's no need to be so 'righteous'.
 

erawamai

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junkie said:
what kind of sick person told you that? On one hand you have someone's financial position, and on the other hand you have someone's life.
erawamai said:
How can economic status and cost of the raising of the child be irrelevant before birth but relevant after birth when the court awards damages/compensation for a wrongful birth?
------------
 
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katie_tully

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I'm not sick. It's not like I parade around and say free abortions for all. I think that there are many valid reasons for somebody to terminate a pregnancy, and that the welfare of the mother should be put before the "welfare" of an unborn foetus. I feel that too much emphasis is put on the rights of the unborn foetus, a foetus which needs the mother in order to survive - yet it appears as though the rights of the mother as a woman, and as a human being are put second.
 
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