Best Law Schools (2 Viewers)

[lexilulu]

Guys...
I'm in year 11 this year and I am really intrested in Law, pref. International Law. I would love to work for the Federal Govt. [DFAT] or an international organisation, such as the UN or NATO. I'm really into international [european] affairs if you havn't guessed yet. I'm really torn as to which university I should...say, aim at -->Monash, ANU?
I havn't read the earlier posts but my gut feeling is telling me to...
1. Monash - It's very close to where I live and I will have my family close by [a really lame excuse, I know, but you never know what first year Uni. entails...]. If I don't get the enter...
2. ANU - I know a couple of people in A.C.T. Would it provide more of an international perspective to my degree?

 

[hYperTrOphY]

I'm not aware of any reputation regarding international law, but have you looked at the electives? Also, what course is available to combine with the law component may be important.

 

[Xytech]

The place being close is a big issue; remember you are stuck there for 5 years, thats a lot of wasted travel time if you can avoid it by staying close. I Know monash melb and ANU have all kinds of travelish stuff/ int stuff, so take your pick.

 

[ari89]

I think this will open your eyes

It's statistically and empirically proven that UWS is the best law school in the world. Don't let the nay sayers contradict you, it has the best facilities, teaching staff and produces the best law graduates. Rumour has it, that the government artificially imposes the low uai cut-off to keep the fact it's such a brilliant law school secret, thereby enabling them to place their own children in it surreptiously.

Better than Harvard, kids. Better than Harvard.

 

[dheerajt]

hello kids,

i've been reading quite a few threads over the past few days read over some very intresting discussion. Here comes my own solicitation for advice on what seems to be a fairly frequent topic.

I've been accepted into both UNSW and USyd, (Arts (political economy)/Law) I took a gap year (and a half) after highschool and will be starting in a couple of months from now right into semester 2, which means I've attended no open days, been to neither of the universities or spoken to faculty. So you guys are the best and hopefully most insightful contacts I'm going to have.

I'm not particularly concerned about the relative ranking between the two institutions but more about their comparitive academic and collateral benefits to students. (If there is a distinctive area within law at either university i'd be intrested in knowing what that was?)

From what I have read here and elsewhere it seems that USydney elistist, arrogant, has larger classes than UNSW, no legal aid centers like UNSW at which students can fritter away their time for that one more line on their resume, and that the cirriculum is focused more on the current law rather than teaching the development of the law like UNSW.

However, although UNSW was initially looking like a firm choice, USyd has managed to steal away some of its thunder, oldschool buildings, an established rep and an exchange program with Harvard have a way of doing that to a guy.

Seeing as how those who read this will be UNSW/sydneycentric any and all opinions and advice would be welcome regarding all matters concerning law at either institution.

Cheers

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Both
- USyd and UNSW are roughly equal first in terms of law school reputation in NSW.
- Both will provide you with excellent employment opportunities, and both universities are very competitive at the top-tier firm level.
- Both will provide you with brand new law buildings, although USyd is still building and UNSW has finished.
- Both have active and well-funded student law societies. (USyd, UNSW)
- Both have excellent and successful competitions programs, such as mooting.

USyd Advantages
- Better for Arts & Humanities subjects.
- Slightly higher reputation for law, largely due to longer history and subsequent links with profession.
- Harvard Law School exchange program.
- Has a mandatory international law course (could be a disadvantage to some!)
- Nicer looking campus externally (environment, buildings).
- Perception of old school prestige.
- Perception of black-letter law teaching (ie. purely what the law is).

UNSW Advantages
- Better for Commerce subjects.
- Smaller class sizes.
- Opportunity to be involved in the only university law journal in Australia which is run entirely by law students.
- A wide range of legal research centres which you can be involved in, including practice in a Community Legal Centre, Kingsford Legal Centre, which is now situated on campus in the new law building.
- Has more time devoted to core courses of Contracts, Criminal Law, Property Law and Litigation (two semesters spent on each compared to one each at USyd, although noticeably USyd has a separate Equity course which may account for less time spent on Property).
- Nicer looking campus internally (rooms).
- Perception of innovation and modernity.
- Perception of also placing the law within its social context, historically known for its focus on social justice issues. (In terms of this focus in subjects, this is apparent in some courses such as Criminal Law, but generally one can avoid this if one so wishes. It does not come up in too many classes.)

 

[MoonlightSonata]

You can't really go wrong with either. Perhaps considering your Arts interests USyd might be the better choice for you. Also, you might like to go and visit each campus to get a feel for the atmosphere, if you haven't done so already.

 

[phrred]

Harvard law exchange is awesome but honestly how much chance do you think you would have in getting a place? I dont think theyd accept more than 5-10 people a semester

 

[dheerajt]

Harvard law exchange is awesome but honestly how much chance do you think you would have in getting a place? I dont think theyd accept more than 5-10 people a semester

Undoubtedly being competitive for entry and then actually getting in won't be the easiest thing to do...that said the fact that the program is actually avaliable is a step in the right direction towards being admitted.

 

[dheerajt]

Both

USyd Advantages
- Better for Arts & Humanities subjects.
- Perception of old school prestige.
- Perception of black-letter law teaching (ie. purely what the law is).

UNSW Advantages
- Better for Commerce subjects.
- Smaller class sizes.
- Opportunity to be involved in the only university law journal in Australia which is run entirely by law students.
- A wide range of legal research centres which you can be involved in, including practice in a Community Legal Centre, Kingsford Legal Centre, which is now situated on campus in the new law building.
- Has more time devoted to core courses of Contracts, Criminal Law, Property Law and Litigation (two semesters spent on each compared to one each at USyd, although noticeably USyd has a separate Equity course which may account for less time spent on Property).

Since your experience has been at UNSW, could you tell me about specificially the following:
1) One of UNSW's main selling points is their much vaunted small seminar style classes. How small are they in reality and do the benefits of said size actually come through?
2)USyd is supposedly more theoretical and UNSW more practical, could anyone give examples of what this translates into during classes and the impact on you guys as students?
3) It's been said for a student focusing primarily in law should go to Syd and arts/commerce/econ to nsw. Anyone here been in the position of being unsure of their devotion to "pure" law prior to starting their program. If so, how did you choose your school.

 

[bustinjustin]

If you're looking to major in Political Economy, then on that basis, come to Sydney. Between Sydney and UNSW, Sydney is the original, is definitely more established, UNSW was only started up a couple of years ago, and in a way it's a 'satellite' centre to spread the goodness of Political Economy all around (though I'm sure it will be an important centre in it's own right, if it isn't already - on that note, UNSW has a 'Development Studies' program that Sydney doesn't, if that's youre thing, I guess they're more intent on saving the world at UNSW). However, there'll be a much wider range of Political Economy courses to choose from at Sydney, Sydney publishes the Journal of Australian Political Economy, we have the awesome Frank Stilwell (I'm sure George Argyrous, who runs Political Economy at UNSW, is also great, but Stilwell is one of the original pioneers who fought to establish a P.E department at Sydney Uni, being taught by him is quite a life-experience).

Not in a position to say much about law, but have a friend who started off at UTS Law, got a transfer to UNSW, changed to Sydney Uni (partly because I convinced him to), then absolutely hated Sydney Uni because of the awful red tape, and the cold, indifferent aura from admin, whereas UNSW welcomed him with more open arms, gave him credit for all his law subjects (Sydney didn't), and generally made the process a lot easier (this is basically what several friends complained about after they transferred to Sydney, they all blamed me for it, but I think they're a lot stronger for the experience - I like to call it ''character building'') . Take this with a grain of salt though, he's just one person, everyone's different, some are more resilient, risk-taking, others timid, slightly oversensitive (if so, Sydney might wear you down).

 

[dheerajt]

I'd have to agree with your points on PE i came to the same conclusions. So since you are a Sydney man yourself any thoughts on the "characteristics" of USyd and the type of student who fits in there? The general consensus seems to be private school kids with a right wing outlook and a penchant for polos. Any changes or additions to that?

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Since your experience has been at UNSW,

Just a note -- I have experience studying at both universities.

could you tell me about specificially the following:
1) One of UNSW's main selling points is their much vaunted small seminar style classes. How small are they in reality and do the benefits of said size actually come through?

First year classes are around 30-35 students, later years around 40-45 students, final year electives around 50-55 students. We do not have any lectures. The way most law schools work is to hold a lecture, where a large number of students come in and listen to the lecturer and take notes, and then hold a tutorial, which is a small class with group discussion. At UNSW we have basically large tutorials with no lectures. In other words, it is always interactive.

The benefit is that you have more attention from the teacher and you have more interaction through asking and answering questions. (In fact for almost all of our law subjects, we have a mandatory class participation assessment requirement of about 15-20% of the final grade. People who contribute more are therefore rewarded.) When you have a really silent class then it can be problematic and in these cases the teacher will go more into a lecture mode.

Bare in mind that, at least at UNSW, the way learning works is that you do your primary learning at home by reading the required materials. You do not learn the basic materials by going to classes. In classes what we do is go through the complexities in material, smooth our understanding of it, critically discuss it, and think about it in more detailed ways.

2)USyd is supposedly more theoretical and UNSW more practical, could anyone give examples of what this translates into during classes and the impact on you guys as students?

I have never heard that and I am unaware of any evidence of that being true.

 

[dheerajt]

Thanks MoonlightSonata helpful stuff there. Any thoughts on the student body and perhaps a comparison with USyd since you have experience in both places?

 

[bustinjustin]

I'd have to agree with your points on PE i came to the same conclusions. So since you are a Sydney man yourself any thoughts on the "characteristics" of USyd and the type of student who fits in there? The general consensus seems to be private school kids with a right wing outlook and a penchant for polos. Any changes or additions to that?

There's really no 'type' that fits in, USyd is a lot more diverse than people make it out to be, and if anything, 'lefties' dominate student politics. That said, it's not a living, walking advertisement for multicultural, egalitarian Australia or anything, that's not to say there's no ethnics or minorities, but most people are comfortable (upper) middle class, and you'll probably be annoyed by talk about 'holidays' in Paris as if people were only there last week, and people talking about slums and underprivileged villages in asia or latin america, as if they're the latest travel hot spot. Best way to deal with this is save up the money and go to these places yourself. All this however depends on your course. Yes, polo clad rich kids seem to dominate, but all you need to do is look around and see that's not the case. if you're not already used to being around them, I guess it may be a problem, but again, they're just people, some are wankers, some not. Whatever. In a way, it's a complex topic, but not that important, as long take it in as a 'socialising' experience.

Mind you, to a certain extent, I kinda hated Sydney Uni in my first year, for all its contradictions, the place just reeks of substanceless wank, pomp and indifference, but probably the most frustrating thing is the amount of people that don't realise this. But you live with it, get into it, realise that you just may be getting an okay education (well, actually, i'm quite happy with mine, thanks to P.E), and end up not wanting to be at any other uni (in Sydney at least). It does take time, but you end up knowing enough people to run into someone constantly (if this wasn't already happening), and when this happens the place feel quite small. For Political Economy in particular, you do need to have an open, critical mind, and have a propensity to be altruistic (i.e. kinda wanna save the world), otherwise you'll just complain about the 'leftist' slant of the whole course, when the whole point of it is to challenge orthodoxy.

 

[dheerajt]

substanceless wank

Evocative, the phrase really stood out for me.

A couple of more points for discussion. Whats the commuting like for you espicially having to go to the main campus for PE and the law school for other classes. Not to mention commuting from where ever it is you live. Worth it do you reckon?

How do you find PE integrating with the law courses? Hm so does this make you an aspiring UN official or can you see yourself saving the world one insitutional equity investor at a time?

 

[bustinjustin]

Evocative, the phrase really stood out for me.

A couple of more points for discussion. Whats the commuting like for you espicially having to go to the main campus for PE and the law school for other classes. Not to mention commuting from where ever it is you live. Worth it do you reckon?

How do you find PE integrating with the law courses? Hm so does this make you an aspiring UN official or can you see yourself saving the world one insitutional equity investor at a time?

I actually don't do law myself, only posted here cos you were keen on P.E, but as for the commute, for combined law, law classes are held on the main campus for years 1-3, then years 4-5 are spent at the st james law school. However, as you may know, the law school will eventually move to the main campus anyway. It takes me about 30-45 minutes to get from home to uni, so it's not an issue for me, you'll find travelling time will sometimes, if not often, be the only time you do your readings. Whether a commute is worth it depends on the person really.

Can't say that P.E and law go together, it does depend on the course, variety us the spice of life after all, but as one P.E tutor puts it, he was using PE to learn how people were exploited, and law to exploit people. Every 2nd person seems to want to work for the UN, I guess I wouldn't mind, working for the UN sounds so cliched to be honest.

 

[dheerajt]

I actually don't do law myself,

ah sorry for the assumption

as one P.E tutor puts it, he was using PE to learn how people were exploited, and law to exploit people.

That seems a rather cliched outlook on lawyers as a whole but i suppose its hardly unexpected. With the left leaning politics that seem to be dominant in the PE faculty I guess that sounds about right, although a cynic could argue what better way to develop new methods of exploitating people than the study of current methods and the idealist would argue there is no better training for a aspiring "im going to change the world" lawyer than PE.

Personally I confess being a little dissapointed at the dominant political outlook in the faculty, somehow seems more like a incubation area for socialists rather than a departement promoting diversity in intellectual thought. I read another thread somewhere in which you were discussing the then immanent closure/integration of PE? any updates on that?

 

[bustinjustin]

ah sorry for the assumption

Personally I confess being a little dissapointed at the dominant political outlook in the faculty, somehow seems more like a incubation area for socialists rather than a departement promoting diversity in intellectual thought. I read another thread somewhere in which you were discussing the then immanent closure/integration of PE? any updates on that?

I apologise if I'm come across as a tad too cynical, try not to take anything I say too seriously, it's all a bit tongue-in-cheek. Yes, P.E does seem unashamedly to 'indoctrinate' its students, but it only seems this way because the essence of the course is to challenge the dominant school of economic thought, which happens to be 'right'-leaning. The best way to look at P.E is as a different way of studying economics using social science, history and 'lived' experiences to study economic issues, rather than just graphs, formulas and 'logic' (this was pretty much why the department was formed). And even so, you can still get a good dose of maths and graphs in P.E depending on the units you choose, if that's your thing.

If anything, at times, P.E does try to go beyond the whole 'left vs right' thing, and it encompasses so many other disciplines (not just government, but geography, sociology, and philosophy) and is a lot more open to "diversity'' in thinking than most other departments (case in point - the Government department, which is brimming with megalomaniac political hacks - but again, that's just my perception). However, the misperception that P.E simply churns out socialists is just as cliched as what I wrote about lawyers, and it's just as misleading, if not more so, so don't let that deter you in any way. The best way to look at P.E

Yes, P.E is still vulnerable, though there seems to be a planned move to a new Social Sciences Insitute, (sadly) within the Arts Faculty next year. It might mean more respect, but possibly less funding, don't know the details. In practice, all this administrivia hasn't actually impacted too much on the quality of the courses, or even on class sizes, from my experiences anyway, and nor should it either, in the future.

 

[Season]

Also try to think about what you might like to specialise in, the different universities have different strengths.

I know ANU is good for interntational law and public law, this is mainly due to its location. Also you get to regulary mingle with the high court judges who love to throw balls for law students.

I know that Sydney is the best for criminal law, but I don't know what the other universities strengths are.

As for people who diss Canberra, have you even lived here? Canberra has a great mood to it, its like a big town. Its easy to get around, traffic is non-existant, night life is good and sure there is no beach, but the time it takes to reach the beach is probably the same it is in Melbourne or Sydney considering the traffic you guys have to get through.

It gets very cold and it gets very hot, but I love it, and everyone I know from Canberra loves it too. Even exchange students prefer the atmosphere of Canberra to the bustling cities. Its small but its a great place to study, and seriously to have fun all you need is a few thousand students in the same few blocks and you'll have fun.

I have most experience with ANU but I'm sure that depending on where the university is, will vary its focus on specialities.