Boat People (1 Viewer)

[Alexander]

It's people like you that make Australia great....a great shite-hole, but still great

 

[Enlightened_One]

I agree with the whole learn the language part at least. Unless they can speak the language of our country then life for them, and those they interact with, becomes very different.

I remember, a few years back, a bloke hassling a news agent for yesterday's copy of a Chinese morning paper. The man could barely speak English, and kept repeating the same words, though he was yelling them. He was saying something like. "I want paper." Over and over. This poor news agent kept trying to explain that they were sold out, but the guy didn't understand.
When I left, he was still shouting about wanting his paper.

 

[Alexander]

Surely this isnt about language. It's about offering humanitarian asylum to those in desperate need. Why does everyone confuse this with immigration?

 

[charmed_cuties]

well to detain children in detention centre is practically sending them to live in jail with their own parents while the government is slow on the process of refugee status.
one needs to assess both the political side of how decision making plays a great part in determining person/s fate to be sent back to their home country or granted refugee status.
if such person/s are returned they may face persecution and may be any form of corporate punishment as a result
we can only conclude that such a matter is so complicated and difficult and will continue to remain this way until the politicians can come up with a successful strategy in resolving matters on both sides of politics and of humanity issues

 

[Enlightened_One]

Originally posted by Alexander
Surely this isnt about language. It's about offering humanitarian asylum to those in desperate need. Why does everyone confuse this with immigration?

I was referring more in immigration to general, sorry about that, I forgot the thread.

Anyway, what I was pointing out is that there is more to it then just letting them out.
They would need education in our laws, our langauge etc. They would need help looking for jobs, and probably would need some help simply going about their daily lives and caring for themselves and their families in a completely different environment.

 

[Alexander]

There are numerous government departments that do exactly that 'enlightened one'

 

[Enlightened_One]

Originally posted by Alexander
There are numerous government departments that do exactly that 'enlightened one'

Then they don't seem to do to well.....

 

[prof]

Originally posted by Enlightened_One
They would need education in our laws, our langauge etc.

Did Europeans learn Aboriginal laws, the Aboriginal language when they came to their land some 200+ yrs ago?

honestly i hate this air of arrogance about the people of today. "aw they shouldn't be queue jumpers, wait your turn."

Europeans didn't settle this land with the permission of Aboriginal people.
Indeed i myself did not ask permission from the indigineous community to live here.

 

[George W. Bush]

because, as we all know, Australia in 1788 = Australia in 2004.

 

[Enlightened_One]

Originally posted by prof
Did Europeans learn Aboriginal laws, the Aboriginal language when they came to their land some 200+ yrs ago?

honestly i hate this air of arrogance about the people of today. "aw they shouldn't be queue jumpers, wait your turn."

Europeans didn't settle this land with the permission of Aboriginal people.
Indeed i myself did not ask permission from the indigineous community to live here.

What I was getting at prof, was that to survive in Australia asylum seekers would need to learn all about our countries. Our society is completely different from where they came from.

And with regards to Aboriginal people, I must point out that Europeans didn't come seeking asylum or try to live in their society, they took over their country. The asylum seekers aren't coming to take over our country (well they better not be) so they're going to have to learn to live in our system, with our laws etc...

And i'm not just saying this because I'm a bigot or what not (which I ain't), I'm saying it because it's the truth. How are these people going to live and support their families if they can't speak english, and don't understand our laws and our society.
They'll remain unemployed, end up in gaol, or end up homeless in the streets.

It's called pragmatism. Learn the term then look at the situation from a pragmatic point of view.

And one more thing, you complain about what happened to the Aboriginals. Well it may have been wrong, but I hope we have evolved into 'civilised' people.
But I wonder, are you a full blood aboriginal? What's your nationality, because your probably a hyprocrite. Have a look at your own ancestor's deeds before you point the finger at this countries background.

Finally, mate, what happened in the past, happened. It can't be changed, so move on. All we can do is try to atone for it, and try not to make the same mistakes again. Pointing the finger never helps anyone.

 

[Generator]

'How are these people going to live and support their families if they can't speak english, and don't understand our laws and our society.
They'll remain unemployed, end up in gaol, or end up homeless in the streets.'

I doubt that... The local ethnic community would help and they would get by as most people tend to do. Besides, it is a bit rich to imply that only those entering the country know nothing of our laws and society...

 

[Enlightened_One]

A bit rich to imply they know nothing about our laws or society, perhaps.

But you forget where they come from women are seen as a possessions. They're coming from a country where an exposed ankle is a flogging offence (I think), to a country with topless beaches.
That's going to take some serious adjusting.
They have to dispell that entire notion of and accept women as equal. Things like that are what I'm getting at....

And the ethnic communities don't look to good because of those Lebanese gang rapes. The rapists came from those ehtnic enlcaves with the perception that Australian women were animals to be used.

Asylum seekers would have to be taught it's not the way society functions within this country.

 

[prof]

Originally posted by Enlightened_One
But I wonder, are you a full blood aboriginal? What's your nationality, because your probably a hyprocrite. Have a look at your own ancestor's deeds before you point the finger at this countries background.

i am a hypocrite to some extent! read my post i said "Indeed i myself did not ask permission from the indigineous community to live here." - but i'm not the one dictating who should be allowed in this country and who should not. i'm not acting like i own this country when i don't.

"Finally, mate, what happened in the past, happened. It can't be changed, so move on. All we can do is try to atone for it, and try not to make the same mistakes again. Pointing the finger never helps anyone."

pointing the finger may not help you but it definitely will in some way help the victims. consequences still remain from what "happened in the past", so it's arrogant to think that the Aboriginal population can all just move on.
you talk about pragmatism, well i'll talk about humanitarianism.
think with your heart, not your wallet.
language barriers can be handled with a simple open mind.

i'm sorry, i probably came down a bit hard at first. i realise that you probably aren't a bigot, but i was just a bit steamed after reading the previous 10 or so pages in this thread. once again i apologise, but those are my views.

 

[Enlightened_One]

Never mind your heated response. (I hate getting apologised to). It was a valid argument.

By pragmatism I mean think of thngs from a logical point of view. I was talking about how Asylum seekers would fit into our country, what would have to be done, seeing as how it is so different where they came from.
Money was far from mind. My wallet doesn't factor into the equation. I was trying to point out that if you open the gates, give them a little wave, and say your free to go, most of them will not be able to find jobs, feed themselves or their family. They won't have the skills needed to survive.

Seeing as Aboriginals desrve an apology, can i have an apology because I'm of convict decent (partially) so my ancestors didn't want to come out here. Course I'd rather be Australian than English, so that is a little hyopcritical....

 

[prof]

Originally posted by Enlightened_One
By pragmatism I mean think of thngs from a logical point of view.

i know what the bloody word means. i said, think "humanitarianism".

when i refer to your wallet, i don't mean you directly worrying about money as a factor.

when people talk of practicality in this sense, they talk of how practical certain things are in currency terms. All problems you mentioned which may result from language barriers and what not, are easily overcome with the aid of organisations designed to accustom migrants to this land and help them settle down. no doubt these organisations exist, i just don't know because i haven't investigated it.
But these facilities don't just happen. they need funding.

so when people say it's impractical they mean they don't want to pay for something they themselves will get nothing out of.
my thoughts. what do you think?

 

[Enlightened_One]

Langauge isn't the only barrier. They still have different beliefs you forget. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, so remember this, I simply making a point with what I'm saying.
Remember the gang rapes in Sydney. Remember how the rapists said they saw Aussie girls as pigs and animals because of the way they acted and dressed.
This sort of mentality was stressed to these people as they were raised. I'm not critising Lebanese people as a whole, simply a few. They came from a society where women were nothing, to a country where they do what they like.
It's attititudes like that causes trouble for everybody involved. Things like that, our social settings, need to be taught.

I know what bloody humanitarianism means by the way. And I suppose I am not totally pragmatic, I didn't even consider the money involved, it didn't occur to me.

I never said it was impractical. I was simply trying to imply what needed to be done.

To me the impractical means something that isn't quite impossible, but might as well be. It's something that can be done, but in the end there really was no point.

Maybe it is humanitarian to let them out, and maybe it's only a temporary solution. Letting all the asylum seekers in solves their incarceration, but not their plight.

Were I ever chased from my country I'd want to go back as soon as I safely could (if I had a fmaily), or help rid the menace from my country.

Now, the other thing you must remember is precedent. As soon as we set the precedent for allowing in asylum seekers, we cannot stop. Given the state of the world, the paranoia in my system says keep everyone out.

Failing that the best we can do is tightly regulate those who do enter, even as visitors. As soon as it becomes obvious asylum seekers can get into Australia, then more will follow, many more, and not real persecuted people. Following them will come the disguised terrorists.

Something ought to be done, but we forget the most obvious thing. They came to our country because they were told to. The authorities should have common sense and offer these people sanctuary in return for incriminating or identifying people smugglers.

These are my hurried thoughts, trying to be as analytical as possible.

 

[prof]

Originally posted by Enlightened_One
Remember the gang rapes in Sydney. Remember how the rapists said they saw Aussie girls as pigs and animals because of the way they acted and dressed.This sort of mentality was stressed to these people as they were raised. I'm not critising Lebanese people as a whole, simply a few

that is such crap. Rape is not restricted to this ethnic minority. It's something that men from all races are guilty of.

In the "treatment of POW's" thread you talked of how the media tends to focus on only what will rate best.
i agree with you completely but i don't understand why you're not applying that here?
"pack of lebanese youths", "allegedly of middle eastern appearance" is all we hear in the media. why are you not dismissing these claims? i know someone who was raped by someone of this very own country. that wasn't in the news. this girl didn't get an interview with 60 minutes.

you talk of "different beliefs". do you seriously think that in these countries they believe that women are objects to be humiliated. oh ofcourse, that's all you hear in the media. "the taliban, flogging women who show ankle" etc etc. i can assure you that is definitely not indicative of their beliefs. it is just a minority of extremist religious groups who misconstrue the teachings of their religion, and in no way shows the majority's beliefs.
same applies for christianity. i do not believe it says anywhere in the bible, or even implies, that homosexuality is wrong and should be forbidden. yet people misconstrue, misinterpret, misunderstand...but again this is in no way reflective of the entire christian population

Can you understand what i'm getting at?

 

[glycerine]

Originally posted by prof
that is such crap. Rape is not restricted to this ethnic minority. It's something that men from all races are guilty of.

In the "treatment of POW's" thread you talked of how the media tends to focus on only what will rate best.
i agree with you completely but i don't understand why you're not applying that here?
"pack of lebanese youths", "allegedly of middle eastern appearance" is all we hear in the media. why are you not dismissing these claims? i know someone who was raped by someone of this very own country. that wasn't in the news. this girl didn't get an interview with 60 minutes.

you talk of "different beliefs". do you seriously think that in these countries they believe that women are objects to be humiliated. oh ofcourse, that's all you hear in the media. "the taliban, flogging women who show ankle" etc etc. i can assure you that is definitely not indicative of their beliefs. it is just a minority of extremist religious groups who misconstrue the teachings of their religion, and in no way shows the majority's beliefs.
same applies for christianity. i do not believe it says anywhere in the bible, or even implies, that homosexuality is wrong and should be forbidden. yet people misconstrue, misinterpret, misunderstand...but again this is in no way reflective of the entire christian population

Can you understand what i'm getting at?

dude, my respect for you just increased tenfold (not that i didn't respectyou already)

my ex boyfriend lived in lebanon for a good 8 years i think, and he says that it is bs to say that women are restricted or disrespected in lebanese culture (as the media would lead you to believe, often to provide a scapegoat for behaviour such as gang rape), also a large percentage of the lebanese population is christian, a religion not famed for really degrading women.

of course, every culture has unacceptable beliefs, or maybe i should rephrase that, every culture has people who believe things we view as unacceptalbe (such as the attitudes towards women), but like prof said, in most cases, the beliefs and actions of religious extremist minorities, are misconstrued to seem like those of the majority

 

[Enlightened_One]

Dammit, do i not make sense (wouldn't surprise me). I never said majority.

I was trying to make a point. Think of it this way. In singapore it's a death offence to chew gum or something. How many of you knew that.

Now imagine you illegally entered that country, had no info on any of it's laws or ways and you bought some gum with you and were caught.

Does that make sense. I was trying to point out that there are differences in our laws, our society and our culture. I wasn't stereotyping a majority I was trying to make a point.

I do come from a very white rural community, but I have a couple of friends of varying ethnic backgrounds too. I am not being racist merely trying to make a point. Don't take things so personally please.

 

[glycerine]

it's called adaptation