Bush's Creationism in schools remarks (3 Viewers)

[SashatheMan]

Ok Sasha with that comment you made and likewise MLS with that statement, what if you can't produce physical proof but there are other people who have encountered the same experience either in the presence of your company or without?

Like for example, say if Person A saw an alien and Person B also saw the same alien. What then? Do we dimiss the claims becuase there's no physical evidence or ability to empirically test what happened? (assuming each person is of good health and behaves in a rationally)

If anyone's addressed this before, sorry, but the thread is quite long to sort through.

with most alien sighting , the claim rarely even gets aknowledged, without a photograph or video recording. If they have a photo or something however unlike most religious people, the people who study such claims dont just start claiming this is irrefutable evidence of their existance, they try to analyse it and alot of the time find that its a fake. Sometimes they cant find any faults with the photo , but they still dont claim this is the greatest evidence so far. there needs to be much more larger group of people who observe it, and a good source is always beneficial. a large alien sighting hasnt occured yet though. how strange.

 

[Generator]

Ok Sasha with that comment you made and likewise MLS with that statement, what if you can't produce physical proof but there are other people who have encountered the same experience either in the presence of your company or without?

Like for example, say if Person A saw an alien and Person B also saw the same alien. What then? Do we dimiss the claims becuase there's no physical evidence or ability to empirically test what happened? (assuming each person is of good health and behaves in a rationally)

If anyone's addressed this before, sorry, but the thread is quite long to sort through.

For someone not of the opinion that such a thing exists (i.e., not of the faith), that would depend entirely upon whether the person is a skeptic (i.e., agnostic) or whether they are completely closed to what they would consider to be a fanciful notion (i.e., atheist). Both would treat the claims as not being worthy of serious consideration, but one would remain somewhat open to the possibility whereas the other would dismiss it out of hand.

Is that the type of response that you were after?


All of that said and done, why someone would want to 'prove' a particular aspect of their faith is beyond me... Yes, one may consider it to be true and that the 'evidence' is before our eyes, but keep in mind that it is a faith, and that one cannot believe in something that actually exists. As such, to try and 'prove' it achieves nothing in a spiritual sense (it's as though one is trying to justify their own faith in the entity in question) and it only serves to fuel debates such as this.


I'm kind of tired, but at the moment that all seems to make sense.

 

[Capitalist Pig]

its also irrational not to believe in God as we cant prove he doesnt not exist... its the converse..

essentially you have faith too.. if you are an athestist.. because you hope that you are right.. based on a hunch.. that they arent there..

1. Belief that there is no God is more logical than belief that one exists because it makes less assumptions and works mostly within established scientific reasoning which we know to be true.
2. Moonlight is an agnostic, not an atheist.

 

[Generator]

1. Belief that there is no God is more logical than belief that one exists because it makes less assumptions and works mostly within established scientific reasoning which we know to be true.

A lack of belief isn't a belief in itself (as you know, CP), and it would be great if those of a religious nature stopped making statements to the contrary.

 

[erawamai]

its also irrational not to believe in God as we cant prove he doesnt not exist... its the converse..

essentially you have faith too.. if you are an athestist.. because you hope that you are right.. based on a hunch.. that they arent there..

I believe the default is no belief.

When you are born you don't believe in any god because your conscience is not shaped yet. You conscience is then shaped by the world around. for example your teacher may tell you that the bible is where its at or your father might tell you that Allah is all powerful. You conscience is shaped by what is told to you and then so are your beliefs.

People are not born christian, muslim or born buddhist. Unless of course you can find me the christian gene?

 

[ManlyChief]

I beg to differ. Faith is belief without proof. If Biblical faith is different, please explain how it is.
Just because I would behave inline with the socially acceptable norm does not mean that there is any true right or wrong. I would recommend reading David Hume. He makes a very important point about morality. According to Hume it is a logical fallacy to go from stating propositions of fact (what is) to then conclude propositions of morality (what ought to be done). This is called the "is-ought" gap. There is absolutely no objective evidence in the world that can produce moral truths. As Hume says:

"Take any action allow’d to be vicious: Willful murder, for instance. Examine it in all lights, and see if you can find that matter of fact, or real existence, which you call vice… You can never find it, till you turn your reflexion into your own breast, and find a sentiment of disapprobation, which arises in you, toward this action. Here is a matter of fact; but ‘tis the object of feeling, not reason."

Do not rule out the very plausable possibility that morality is a fiction. It is only the work of feelings and not an objective fact.
If you're interested I recommend taking a course in moral philosophy. The last part of what you refer to is called "divine command theory" -- essentially "x is good" means "God commands x". (It is unfortunately one of the worst theories out there.)
Basically yes. Utilitarianism works at achieving the greatest good for the greatest number, counting each person equally. Good is usually defined as happiness or pleasure (though some have gone into more detail).
I don’t think we are. And Hume has an answer for you. Our feelings of morality stem from empathy for other people. That is why all humans have it - because all humans have the ability to empathise with another.

I really recommend you read A Treatise on Human Nature. Once you read through these different theories you will see there is no need to account for the unexplainable with a deity.
No, the burden is on the person who believes in God, not the other way around. If I said that I met an alien last night you would not believe me without proof. Indeed, given the extraordinary nature of the claim, you would be acting irrationally to believe me without proof.

I know when Hume starts getting quoted that we have moved into serious debate. Top shelf snaps to MoonslightSonata.

All you folks should have been at the debate on this very point at USyd a couple of months ago between that professor of logic and the bishop of nth sydney ... The bishop was very convincing ...

 

[veterandoggy]

i dont know exactly what you mean precise details on baby development , but theres many , many more things that were proven wrong, and alot of them where associated with god.
Why did the Aztecs sacrifice people? they believes god would bring them rain, but any sane person now knows that rain is simply a weather pattern and is not cuased by blood shed.
or that the world is flat, whcih was later proven wrong, or that there isnt such a thing as a witch and they shouldnt be burnt at the stake, or the idea that the sun goes around the earth.
look all these have been proven wrong, all with the help of Science and logic. Someone saying we were created by god, has NOT been scientificly proven, hence theres no reason to argue that peopel in past history could predict sometihng without advanced technology. T
hey predicted many things, some were correct and some where wrong. however all the correct assumptions were scientifically justifiable , but god is not.

what i mean is that in the quran, it clearly describes the foetus as starting off as male and female discharge, then it looks like a blood clot, then it looks like a leech, then chewed clay, and i think that is where it stops. i could try get the book which i found the analysis and scan the two objects (the baby and the described object) and show them to you, but that may take awhile.

its nice how you brought up rain, because we know that water is at an equilibrium, where the same amount of water coming down is also being evaporated somewhere else (ie 1 million litres coing down in rain, 1 million litres being evaporated somewhere else).

first of all people who observe bees and people who are preaching of god and telling how he made us are completely diffent people.
the people who were involved in the field of lets say collecting honey , observed the bees and wrote down assumptions and held ideas on how they operated. These people observed physical objects and made notes on them. Some of them were proven wrong as technology advances and some were correct.

the people who said god existed didnt have physical evidence to justify what they said. And theres lots scientific evidence that proves it wrong.

and when it comes to angels and satan exist, thats the whole point u cant prove they exist, thats why its so unbelivable. a bee could be studied and the sex of it could be determines through experiments. You cant physically study god. its more believable to study a woman who was accused of being a witch as there is actually sometihing to observe rather then studying a non material thing (god). And as we all know a witch is not real, so why is god real?

the people who are preaching god get their information from the being who said that worker bees are female. and if you are thinking that they did experiments to discover this, then why was it only confirmed this century?

well, i guess that is what aetheism is based on, right? solid evidence, "if i cant see it, then it doesnt exist"...

as for existence of angels and devils, i already told you that my friend has been to numerous exorcisims (not 'the exorcist' style, real possessed people). he would tell you that there are unseen creatures around you, having witnessed these creatures exit people who went from acting stupid to becoming perfectly normal. some of y elder relatives knew people who spoke with jinn, and also others who knew black magic, so for your information saying "its magic" has a meaning where i come from

 

[Xayma]

as for existence of angels and devils, i already told you that my friend has been to numerous exorcisims (not 'the exorcist' style, real possessed people). he would tell you that there are unseen creatures around you, having witnessed these creatures exit people who went from acting stupid to becoming perfectly normal. some of y elder relatives knew people who spoke with jinn, and also others who knew black magic, so for your information saying "its magic" has a meaning where i come from

Since expecting an event has never made one believe in it before...

I have friends who have had flatmates exorcised, they never described sensing unknown things around just that it got creepy towards the time it was suppose to happen.

 

[veterandoggy]

Since expecting an event has never made one believe in it before...

I have friends who have had flatmates exorcised, they never described sensing unknown things around just that it got creepy towards the time it was suppose to happen.

expecting events? please explain.

my friend didnt feel anything strange in the surroundings, only from the possessed person. but i've heard experiences with black magic which sound dead true, like a person being able to burn something he focused on. he could make a cigarette circle burn if the person wasnt looking at him, and my aunty's husband had a guy take an overwhelming neck pain out of my aunty's husband and put it on himself. apparently it was because the guy didnt like to owe favours lol.

 

[SashatheMan]

expecting events? please explain.

my friend didnt feel anything strange in the surroundings, only from the possessed person. but i've heard experiences with black magic which sound dead true, like a person being able to burn something he focused on. he could make a cigarette circle burn if the person wasnt looking at him, and my aunty's husband had a guy take an overwhelming neck pain out of my aunty's husband and put it on himself. apparently it was because the guy didnt like to owe favours lol.

what a coincidence, noone has to be looking. I still havewnt seen a video recording of anyone burning through paper, if he makes claims that he can do so , he should do a public demonstation.

 

[veterandoggy]

what a coincidence, noone has to be looking. I still havewnt seen a video recording of anyone burning through paper, if he makes claims that he can do so , he should do a public demonstation.

no, i meant if the person who had angered him hadnt kept an eye on him, he would burn through their shirt. he didnt walk around in the street, burning everyone he saw

 

[SashatheMan]

I believe the default is no belief.

When you are born you don't believe in any god because your conscience is not shaped yet. You conscience is then shaped by the world around. for example your teacher may tell you that the bible is where its at or your father might tell you that Allah is all powerful. You conscience is shaped by what is told to you and then so are your beliefs.

People are not born christian, muslim or born buddhist. Unless of course you can find me the christian gene?

that is correct you are shaped by the people you are born around. Zahid makes a silly claim we are all born muslim, however he cant justify it in anyway. But Zahid is born into a muslim family what a coincidence it is that he thinks everyone should be muslim at birth. maybe your muslim becuase your been shaped by your parents and other religion people around you.you just let them soak their thoughts about religion into your young innocent brain, feeding on their stories for years, untill you turn out like you are at the moment , brainwashed and commited to a cuase without reason and logic and lose the sence of reality

 

[SashatheMan]

no, i meant if the person who had angered him hadnt kept an eye on him, he would burn through their shirt. he didnt walk around in the street, burning everyone he saw

i know a guy that said be can ressurect people. and i use to know a fella who would fly. Do you believe me?

have you got any evidenvce he can burn through shirts?

Matilda could do magic when she got angry, maybe your thinking of her.

 

[veterandoggy]

that is correct you are shaped by the people you are born around. Zahid makes a silly claim we are all born muslim, however he cant justify it in anyway. But Zahid is born into a muslim family what a coincidence it is that he thinks everyone should be muslim at birth. maybe your muslim becuase your been shaped by your parents and other religion people around you.you just let them soak their thoughts about religion into your young innocent brain, feeding on their stories for years, untill you turn out like you are at the moment , brainwashed and commited to a cuase without reason and logic and lose the sence of reality

what zahid means is that everyone is born pure with no sins and a muslim. it is only when you reach the age of puberty that your sins are begun to be recorded. and this is also when you become what you have been nurtured to be

 

[veterandoggy]

i know a guy that said be can ressurect people. and i use to know a fella who would fly. Do you believe me?

have you got any evidenvce he can burn through shirts?

Matilda could do magic when she got angry, maybe your thinking of her.

i would definately know that you are lying if you told me that you knew someone who could resurrect people (this seems like a trick question, so i will say that i believe that jesus did ressurect people by allah's leave), but i wouldnt deny that someone 'floated in thin air' because i do not know the vastness of magic.

what, do you want me to fly to lebanon, scan the burnt tshirt and post it up?? of course, you would find it very hard to believe me, because you dont know me and my credibility, but if anyone told me that they knew someone that could do magic, i would believe it, considering if what they could do was within reason, since muslims would know (from what we have extracted from the quran) that two angels were sent down, and they teach people black magic, but not before them acknowledging that by learning black magic, they will go to hell.

matilda was fake, and besides, i dont really know if this person is alive, since the people that were talking about him were above 40 years old.

 

[SashatheMan]

what zahid means is that everyone is born pure with no sins and a muslim. it is only when you reach the age of puberty that your sins are begun to be recorded. and this is also when you become what you have been nurtured to be

yes , but thats a bullshit claim. noone is born into a religion. Everyone who is born is not even aware that people blieve in god.

I challenge zahid to prove my new statement wrong or in any way differnt to his absurd claim.

People are all born pure Christians and it is only when you reach the age of puberty that your sins are begun to be recorded. but sadly 1.5 billion peopel are doomed as they ran out of time and stayed muslim, now they will go to HELL

 

[SashatheMan]

i would definately know that you are lying if you told me that you knew someone who could resurrect people (this seems like a trick question, so i will say that i believe that jesus did ressurect people by allah's leave), but i wouldnt deny that someone 'floated in thin air' because i do not know the vastness of magic.

well if you believe in jesus and allah. i am telling you now i know others who can do the same.

what, do you want me to fly to lebanon, scan the burnt tshirt and post it up?? of course, you would find it very hard to believe me, because you dont know me and my credibility, but if anyone told me that they knew someone that could do magic, i would believe it, considering if what they could do was within reason, since muslims would know (from what we have extracted from the quran) that two angels were sent down, and they teach people black magic, but not before them acknowledging that by learning black magic, they will go to hell.

well its obviously that you cant do such a thing, so dont even make claims of people being able to do so without any proof or evidence. Do you believe that performing magicians having been empowered by god?

they do illusions which have been explained later on, but when they first performed it people dindt know how they did it, these magicans perfrom infornt of many people with cameras everywhere and they still make it look like magic, however its just an illusion. You make a claim of a man burning through a shirt, without any proof. why would anyone sane believe such a silly claim

matilda was fake, and besides, i dont really know if this person is alive, since the people that were talking about him were above 40 years old

how do you know matilda is fake. i can go as far argueing that Roald Dahl is the proffet who descriibed this daughter of god who came to people and did magic on thier familiy and then left. i can make it sound exactly like any religious book , just by making stuff up.
obviously she is just a fictional character, thats becuase everyone knows that she was just a figment of amagination of the author, and that her magic tricks are not humanly possible. Hoever you still choose to believe the story of god which has all the elements of fiction. how absurd is that.

 

[veterandoggy]

yes , but thats a bullshit claim. noone is born into a religion. Everyone who is born is not even aware that people blieve in god.

I challenge zahid to prove my new statement wrong or in any way differnt to his absurd claim.

People are all born pure Christians and it is only when you reach the age of puberty that your sins are begun to be recorded. but sadly 1.5 billion peopel are doomed as they ran out of time and stayed muslim, now they will go to HELL

of course, many people give out challengesd which cant be proven...

i dont understand what youre playing at for your last point

 

[veterandoggy]

well if you believe in jesus and allah. i am telling you now i know others who can do the same.



well its obviously that you cant do such a thing, so dont even make claims of people being able to do so without any proof or evidence. Do you believe that performing magicians having been empowered by god?

they do illusions which have been explained later on, but when they first performed it people dindt know how they did it, these magicans perfrom infornt of many people with cameras everywhere and they still make it look like magic, however its just an illusion. You make a claim of a man burning through a shirt, without any proof. why would anyone sane believe such a silly claim



how do you know matilda is fake. i can go as far argueing that Roald Dahl is the proffet who descriibed this daughter of god who came to people and did magic on thier familiy and then left. i can make it sound exactly like any religious book , just by making stuff up.
obviously she is just a fictional character, thats becuase everyone knows that she was just a figment of amagination of the author, and that her magic tricks are not humanly possible. Hoever you still choose to believe the story of god which has all the elements of fiction. how absurd is that.

these are illusionist, not magicians. not many magicians would boast their powers, for fear of someone harming them. you may know people that speak with the jinn, who speak of the deceased person, not someone who can reanimate a dead person. if you refer to "sane" people as being like yourself, then only an insane "sane"person would believe it.

i guess you could say bogus stuff, compile them into a book, and hope someone believes in it. but they must be blind followers if they dont look into what they're really following

 

[SashatheMan]

these are illusionist, not magicians. not many magicians would boast their powers, for fear of someone harming them. you may know people that speak with the jinn, who speak of the deceased person, not someone who can reanimate a dead person. if you refer to "sane" people as being like yourself, then only an insane "sane"person would believe it.

i guess you could say bogus stuff, compile them into a book, and hope someone believes in it. but they must be blind followers if they dont look into what they're really following

do you look into the claims you make? you havent said anything concluing about a guy who performs black magic by burning a shirt. you are yourself just a blind follower to all the people who claim to be miricle workers and use faith to back thier claims.
magicians who perform tell people they doing an illusion , but people cant exlain it, the people you speak of, usually cant even do any magic, but just claim to know it. Others just know how to do illusions, and blind followers as yourself will fall for it.