Bush's Creationism in schools remarks (1 Viewer)

[Generator]

and faith is what gets u off the bed each morning.

No, it's what gets you (and others of a similar bent) off the bed each morning.

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

thats not faith... tats quailty workmanship..

 

[heybraham]

Faith is what gives you the confidence to sit on a chair without fear of it breaking

lol yeah

it's a fallacy that people think that, by definition, faith has to somehow defy logic or be 'religious'.

i have faith that this chair has quality workmanship, that the legs will support my ass...now i'm some sort of illogical religious fanatic?

i mean, am i stupid for thinking that evolution itself was all part of God's master plan?

who the hell reads the bible to learn about evolution anyway, it's not a science textbook dammit. it's pretty stupid for God to make his own book a boring science textbook, i have school to do that.

(in case someone tells me to should look into science; i do 3 sciences and i happen to enjoy it, thank you)

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

Logically you cant prove God.. there is no argument with enough premises to prove the validity nor an experiment to gather enough evidence. hence you cant prove nor disprove it.

You choose to believe there is a God..

I am actually kinda sick of the whole... "If you believe in God why don't you prove it" arguments from some people.. because its impossible to prove and for me its like a very good hunch... that there is something there..

also intelligent design is a VERY POOR scientific model.. as there are no calculations or observable mechanisms of variables.. i want to see it peer reviewed and scrutanised as a scientific model not a philosophical one

 

[Generator]

Logically you cant prove God.. there is no argument with enough premises to prove the validity nor an experiment to gather enough evidence. hence you cant prove nor disprove it.

You choose to believe there is a God..

I am actually kinda sick of the whole... "If you believe in God why don't you prove it" arguments from some people.. because its impossible to prove and for me its like a very good hunch... that there is something there..

Few would bother with such an argument if others stopped claiming that the proof is before our eyes.

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

Few would bother with such an argument if others stopped claiming that the proof is before our eyes.

i agree and i think that some should spend more time in philosophy and science... understanding the words used.. and the implication..

I think there is also some people, where if u believe what isnt provable its illogical..

but i think faith is good... faith is hoping for the best outcome.. a statistical anomoly to happen... faith is just believing...

 

[Dumsum]

Few would bother with such an argument if others stopped claiming that the proof is before our eyes.

I'm not going to claim that the proof is there before your eyes but I know for me it sure was. The problem was that I never saw it as proof of anything, in fact I never even gave it a thought. There was just no reason to...

What does science have to say about morals and emotion? Can these be observed and measured? I've heard some people say they don't believe emotion is real. I find it more than a little difficult to deny...

 

[Generator]

i agree and i think that some should spend more time in philosophy and science... understanding the words used.. and the implication..

I think there is also some people, where if u believe what isnt provable its illogical..

but i think faith is good... faith is hoping for the best outcome.. a statistical anomoly to happen... faith is just believing...

It isn't for me, but I do agree (heh). My only true problem with religion is that loyalty to the structure of belief tends to lead to conditions of oppression and exclusion. Faith in a higher entity isn't bad in itself (and I doubt that few would say that it is).

What does science have to say about morals and emotion? Can these be observed and measured? I've heard some people say they don't believe emotion is real. I find it more than a little difficult to deny...

...

Leaving aside the fact that you are not going to gain much by suggesting that religion alone provides a guiding framework for morality, who ever said anything about science observing and measuring moralistic frameworks? Reason and logic, the thought process that underpin science, are more than capable of providing a framework of 'morality' (and they do), but I really don't get what you are trying to suggest by asking whether science can 'measure' morals.

As for the emotion statement, I doubt your claim. That is, unless you are grossly misrepresenting someone's suggestion that emotions are natural and in no way linked to a higher entity (or a spiritual soul).

 

[Dumsum]

I meant I find emotions hard to deny. Sorry, I often don't read over what I type. With regard to morals, I don't think anyone would deny that everyone has some sense of what is right and what is wrong, yet as far as I can ascertain, there is no way to measure "good" or "evil" scientifically, and people just accept it. Emotions are a little different since they could just be "chemical and electrical activity in our brain," I realise to discuss reasons for emotion would be getting philosophical, so perhaps not the best example.

 

[veterandoggy]

why the proof is in the bible of course

whoops, mustnt forget the quran...
the bible was sent to an era of people, so it had evidence to convince people of that time. the quran is the last divine relation, and so it was made to cater for the rest of time, so it has evidence to prove things for people of this time too, not just the people of 600AD.

it has evidence, im not denying, but it was more focused on the people in jesus's time, not todays people, hence the quran has more evidence to add to it.

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

kangaroo: i think i was making a point about God..

not the existance of Jesus and Mary... they are real.... like Joseph Smith is a real person... but i dun believe in Joseph Smith's teaching..

Your statements in a scientifically POV give evidence:
1st paragraph: Jesus existed and said stuff that coincides with events and morals about behaviour and implications for humans

2nd: There are holy sites around the world and Medical Science cant solve everything plus there is evidence having faith will lead you recovering faster.

3rd: There are holy statues that bleed and weep that was deemed not to be fraud.

4th: Stigmata can be idiopathic, self inflicted or from another infliction.

5th: Shroud of Turin claims to be Jesus' image... (Actually radio carbon dating questions the reliability of this claim because it does not date anywhere near 33AD)

6th: Statistically, lots of people experience unexplained phenomenan. Like 9/11 when people took sickies.... wow.. ppl taking sickies is not a new thing..

In Science that would be inconclusive about the evidence of God.

If you only understood what i actually meant.. Science and religion are not interchangable.
Religion is almost the collective psyche in a sense.. it imparts morals/ways to live to us.
you can live with science and religion... especially when ethics and morals are significantly more well defined in religion than science..

 

[66013]

I think its pretty ridiculous to be religious in this day and age when its so bloody obvious that they are based on crap ideas
i think this quote by bill hicks is good.
To all you creationists....
"I asked this guy, I said, 'Can I ask you a question? It's a one-word question.' "Go ahead." "Dinosaur. Come on man, Dinosaur fossils. What's the deal?" "Dinosaur fossils? God put those there to test our faith." "I think God put you here to test my faith, dude. You believe that?" "Uh huh." Does that trouble anyone here? The idea that God might be fuckin' with our heads? Anyone have trouble sleeping restfully with that thought in their heads? God's running around, burying fossils: "Huh huh ho. We will see who believes in me now, ha HA. Im a prankster god. I am killing me. Ho ho ho ho." You know, you die, you go to St. Peter, "Did you you believe in dinosaurs?" "Well, you know, there was fossils everywhere." [Bill makes a whap sound on the mic] KOOM Ooowwwwwww. "What are you, an idiot? God was FUCKING with you! Giant flying lizards? You moron! That's one of God's easiest jokes!" "It seemed so plausible! Aieeeeeeeee!" Bound for the lake of fire. . . . While I appreciate your quaint traditions, superstitions, and, you know, I on the other hand am an evolved being who deals solely with the source of light which exists in all of us, in our own minds, no middle man required. [laughs] But anyway, I appreciate your little games and shit, you putting on the tie and going to church, a de da de da. But you know there's a LIVING GOD WHO WILL TALK DIRECTLY FUCKING TO YOU. Sorry, but not too many pages of the Bible that FORGOT TO MENTION DINOSAURS!" "

 

[veterandoggy]

and to add to the list (from islamic stuff)
=supplications have been used to treat burns, and they have worked
=there are many of these types of supplications which cure people from everything from burns to being hit by the evil eye. dont believe in superstition? there is a place, visited my my principal (an irish convert) i think in indonesia or its whereabouts, where people can hear jinn talking to each other and playing games. she did hear it, by the way.

also there are many cases of being posessed by jinn and devils. my friend has been witness to numerous cases and even tried taping the posessed persons voice. the posessed person started laughing at them. they asked him why he was laughing, and he tolds them that you cant record his voice. so they rewound the tape and played it again. you could hear my friend's yawn, and the sheik speaking with the guy, only it sounded like the sheik was speaking to himself.

if you believe in what you cant see, then there should automatically be belief in god, angels, jinn, and anything else that you cant see, but cant confirm their non-existence

 

[MoonlightSonata]

I'm not coming in this thread to try prove anything, except my own faith.

Faith = belief without proof. If you wanted to declare that you believe in God without proof, (a) you have already done that, and (b) this is not the place. This is a discussion forum.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

No, faith is belief without material proof or reason.

it's a fallacy that people think that, by definition, faith has to somehow defy logic or be 'religious'.

Faith is belief without evidence. Believing in something so controversial and extraordinary without evidence is irrational.

i have faith that this chair has quality workmanship, that the legs will support my ass...now i'm some sort of illogical religious fanatic?

Wrong. That is not faith. Empircal evidence and inductive reasoning shows you that. Virtually every chair you have sat on has supported your weight, there is a strong probability that that chair will too.

What does science have to say about morals and emotion? Can these be observed and measured? I've heard some people say they don't believe emotion is real. I find it more than a little difficult to deny...

1. Emotion. Sure we do not understand how exactly emotion works yet. We know that 'emotion' is largely result of various chemical states in your brain and nervous system. So what? This has nothing to do with "God".

2. Morality. First of all you make the enormous mistake of assuming that such a thing exists. Secondly you make the mistake of assuming that morality is objective. Third of all, you make the mistake of assuming that morality cannot be produced through the applications of reason. Ever heard of utilitarianism? Lastly you make the most fundamental mistake of all: relating God to morality, as if that somehow can answer these problems.

 

[Dumsum]

I know it's a quote, but seriously. Based on the assumption that radioactive carbon has decayed at a predictable rate throughout the entire past? There are a lot of things that the Bible doesn't talk about, but it doesn't mean they don't or never did exist. Dinosaurs could have existed with humans or they couldn't have, I don't know. God created animals before humans, so they could very well have been around before us. There is constant debate among Christians and non-Christians alike about whether or not we should take the "days" mentioned in Genesis 1 as literal days. If they're not, then dinosaurs could, in fact, have existed. We cannot assume that the world described in Genesis 1 functioned exactly the same as our world today. I believe the Great Flood that everyone knows about could very well have changed things. Thus can we assume radioactive carbon decayed the same way back then as it does now?

 

[Dumsum]

Faith = belief without proof.

Biblical faith is not the same as dictionary faith.

1. Emotion. Sure we do not understand how exactly emotion works yet. We know that 'emotion' is largely result of various chemical states in your brain and nervous system. So what? This has nothing to do with "God".

I gave up my emotion argument after I realised it doesn't necessarily relate to God.

2. Morality. First of all you make the enormous mistake of assuming that such a thing exists.

Oh, okay. Would you kill a random person on the street? Answer honestly now. And not just "no" because you'd get busted.

Secondly you make the mistake of assuming that morality is objective.

Indeed, this is debateable, and something I'm still having trouble coming to terms with. A strong argument proposed to me once by a friend is that morality is based on society and culture--whatever you are taught as a child is what you end up believing as morally "right" or "wrong." I don't claim to have a response to that, I haven't looked into it enough. Nevertheless, the Bible is explicit. There is an objective "right" and there is an objective "wrong." I think everyone knows what they are, even if they convince themselves otherwise.

Third of all, you make the mistake of assuming that morality cannot be produced through the applications of reason. Ever heard of utilitarianism?

No, I haven't heard of utilitarianism. I'll have to check it out. "in ethics, the theory that the rightness or wrongness of an action is determined by its usefulness in bringing about the most happiness of all those affected by it." I'll read a bit more into it, let me know if this is a good definition to start from.

Lastly you make the most fundamental mistake of all: relating God to morality, as if that somehow can answer these problems.

As I said before, the Bible is explicit. God tells us what is right and what is wrong, and since I believe everyone has some sense of morality, even before they are taught as a child, I believe we are created like so.

 

[TerrbleSpellor]

- Dinosaurs existed millions of years ago.
- Humans only discovered dinosaur remains recently.
- They aren't mentioned in the bible, because when the people made up the bible/kuran/torah, they didn't know that such things existed, so they couldn't include it in the fairy tale.
- It's proof enough that all religion is fake.

- Always remember that the bible/koran/torah was written by the same people who thought that the earth was flat.

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

[Quote =Dumsum]
can we assume radioactive carbon decayed the same way back then as it does now?[/Quote]
actually u raise a good point.. but only for the shroud of turin because the dating goes to 1400's AD

and we did some work on KNOWN artefacts like bones in abbeys in england where they date back to 1000 AD and further..

Faith is belief without evidence. Believing in something so controversial and extraordinary without evidence is irrational.

its also irrational not to believe in God as we cant prove he doesnt not exist... its the converse..

essentially you have faith too.. if you are an athestist.. because you hope that you are right.. based on a hunch.. that they arent there..

and to add to the list (from islamic stuff)
=supplications have been used to treat burns, and they have worked
=there are many of these types of supplications which cure people from everything from burns to being hit by the evil eye. dont believe in superstition? there is a place, visited my my principal (an irish convert) i think in indonesia or its whereabouts, where people can hear jinn talking to each other and playing games. she did hear it, by the way.

also there are many cases of being posessed by jinn and devils. my friend has been witness to numerous cases and even tried taping the posessed persons voice. the posessed person started laughing at them. they asked him why he was laughing, and he tolds them that you cant record his voice. so they rewound the tape and played it again. you could hear my friend's yawn, and the sheik speaking with the guy, only it sounded like the sheik was speaking to himself.

if you believe in what you cant see, then there should automatically be belief in god, angels, jinn, and anything else that you cant see, but cant confirm their non-existence

again...
not the realm of Science.. because in medicine we do lavage to treat burns.. works about 98% of times as treatment method.. and artificial 'skin'... ure supplications may work.. but to put it in the realm of science u need to do it as an experiment..

I am familiar with possessions.. btw its not just in Islam.. its also in Christianity, Jewish and Buddist cultures that have it.. there is a similar level of so called sucess rate.. and also death.. from all groups doing exocisms...
but not in the realm of science .... we treat them as psych patients and psychotrophic drugs work well about 95% success rate to a managable level with reasonable compliance..

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

1. Emotion. Sure we do not understand how exactly emotion works yet. We know that 'emotion' is largely result of various chemical states in your brain and nervous system. So what? This has nothing to do with "God".

Im not disputing this... but its also neuro-electrical..
we can throw lots of drugs at depressed people but combine it with therapy and they dun relapse due to neuronal plasticity.

 

[Dumsum]

actually u raise a good point.. but only for the shroud of turin because the dating goes to 1400's AD

and we did some work on KNOWN artefacts like bones in abbeys in england where they date back to 1000 AD and further..

I mentioned that it was the flood which I believed changed things, this was much much earlier, I don't know how much earlier, 4000 BC, who knows?