Capitalism or Communism? (6 Viewers)

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

A communist society doesn't allow people to mooch of the working electorate - that's what it's against.

ok, well that makes sense to me.

i'm still extremely dubious about communism as a system overall but i'll let you guys have this one

 

[bassistx]

by take advantage, i mean, they wouldn't work, and they'd still get exactly the same benefits as people who do. how is that not taking advantage? if you take something without giving anything back (by working) you are taking advantage of the system, even if noone else within the system is affected but you.

i also fail to see why communism shouldn't provide food if it's going to provide other essential things like education and healthcare. that seems to be a contradiction, itself.

If people don't pay tax, how is the government going to get the funds to provide these services?
I mean, are you dumb or what? Money doesn't grow on trees.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

If people don't pay tax, how is the government going to get the funds to provide these services?
I mean, are you dumb or what? Money doesn't grow on trees.

i already conceded that perhaps you were right about this particular thing, in my reply to neb. so i'll just leave it and we can get on with the debate.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

It can work in many different ways. Government doesn't need money to provide services, they just tell people what to do, these people in turn get goods and services from the government, etc.

 

[sam04u]

State control of something doesn't mean corruption. The state in the capitalist society does not control such things as the media or big buissness. Yet corruption is such a common thing in capitalism. Control does not equal corruption. Corruption is when individuals or groups of individuals use their position for personal benifit.

Comrade nathan, I would argue that there is considerably more "corruption" in a capitalist state than in a communist one.

I'll make a few points. I believe the corruption of a Capitalist state is on the Local, State and International level.

Local corruption: Police overly beefed up, crime (due to poverty), crime (tax evasion), Business/Health (private health insurance policies), etc.

State: Party contributions made by business, Privatisation scandals.

International: Imperialism, theft of resources, scandals, etc.


Honestly, you could go on for ever. But an example of such corruption is the U.S elections. Certain candidates have their hands in media/corporate pockets. Surely they'll act in the interest of one another. And it all trickles down to the one special interest group.

Have a look at the U.S vetoes in the U.N. That'll show you an example of international corruption.

 

[williamc]

If people don't pay tax, how is the government going to get the funds to provide these services?
I mean, are you dumb or what? Money doesn't grow on trees.

Umm the government could run budget deficits like in the US, where they adopt a more regressive taxation system.

And nooooo consistent budget deficits would not strain a country's foreign debt, or further strain the CA.

 

[withoutaface]

A communist society doesn't allow people to mooch of the working electorate - that's what it's against.

But that's exactly what welfare encourages.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

I think you stink!

A communist society certainly wouldn't allow say, some clod who works an hour a day picking berries to make the same amount of money as some fantastic doctor who works twenty hours a day. It's all dependant on how much work you do for the society - something capitalism has failed at miserably. :rofl:

But that's exactly what welfare encourages.

To a few, yes, but that's hardly a reason to be rid of welfare entirely, if that's what you're suggesting.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

It's all dependant on how much work you do for the society - something capitalism has failed at miserably. :rofl:

whoever said capitalism was aiming to succeed at this?

 

[boris]

I haven't read any posts after this one. I am not sure whether anybody has wiped the floor with you yet, but here goes.

And yet more than 1000 people sleep on the streets in Australia.
You really are stupid. You can join my "Dubbed as Stupid Club". Oh, and I'm president btw Considering my number of "epicly stupid" posts.

I think you'll find the number to be more than 1000. Regardless, 1000 is a significantly low number of homeless people.

This system ensures that people will not work for the money, but because it's their passion. I hate people who work for the money - they never give you an honest answer about their product/service/whatever and don't have any pride in their company/whatever. The customer service is horrible.
In any case, if you want to live for free, steal food from the neighbours. The government is not going to give you bread & butter.

What the fuck. That fucking post made no sense. If there is no incentive for people to do a certain job, what on earth do you think will possess people to do a job purely because they enjoy it? Now we'll go back to the scenario of say, doctors and nurses. Why would you go to the effort to become a doctor, or a surgeon or anything else that takes a good 15 years to become. Why do that purely because you enjoy it? It's fucking hard enough as is to retain staff like that, and idiots like you think that people will continue to do jobs because they enjoy them. Wake the fuck up and come into the real world will you?

These people work for the money BECAUSE HOW THE FUCK ELSE DO YOU THINK THEY'LL GET PAID? They probably hate their freakin job, but I don't see the magical bill fairy paying their expenses.

EDIT: Going a few posts back...
Globalisation... Just to be sure, I flicked through a BS textbook this morning. And nowhere was the word "choice" or anything equivalent mentioned. It simply explains that globalisation is the deregulation of domestic markets so you have an international market where you can exchange money, information, and technology. But nothing about choice.

lol @ BS textbooks.
I spent a year doing Retreat from the Global in Ext 1 English. In one fucking week I covered more about globalisation than you will cover in a year, so do us a favour and go and actually research globalisation. I can't believe I am seeing an argument based on a business studies text book.

Furthermore, it asks to think about the products which we eat/wear/use/etc made by TNCs (transnational corps). This only reinforces the feeling of an "invasion". When I think "consumerism", I think of McD's, Burger King, KFC, Microsoft Windows, Adidas, Nike, etc. What do these things have in common? They almost have a monopoly over the market. We do not have many choices.

Die.

If you walk into any shopping centre, you'll have your Myer, David Jones, Kmart, Target, Big W, etc... All of these big department stores. Particularly Myer and David Jones. They take up so many levels. Think of all the specialty stores (and how many more businesses would be running) we could fit in the gigantic place they take up. The more stores, the more choice.

PROS:
*Easier access to information and transferral of funds
*Ability to trade overseas without actually going there

CONS:
*Cuts down specialty stores significantly
*Products are not made in country of purchase (e.g. almost everything is made in China) and therefore do not contribute to that country's economy

I personally support Australian owned and manufactured companies/products. Even if it's more expensive, you can guarantee it's fairtrade and not sweat shop. But that's another issue altogether.

SMEs (small-medium enterprises) contribute a great percentage towards Australia's economy. I just can't find the bloody statistics. I'll refer to a textbook later on if need be.

More business studies bullshit. Fuck off, there are already enough Michael Moore's in the world.

 

[boris]

If people don't pay tax, how is the government going to get the funds to provide these services?
I mean, are you dumb or what? Money doesn't grow on trees.

Yeah. You know who pays in tax what some people earn a year?

Wealthy people!

 

[bassistx]

It can work in many different ways. Government doesn't need money to provide services, they just tell people what to do, these people in turn get goods and services from the government, etc.

And who donates the goods to the government? Governments need money, full stop.

I haven't read any posts after this one. I am not sure whether anybody has wiped the floor with you yet, but here goes.

You're seriously sad for making this discussion between you and myself.

I think you'll find the number to be more than 1000. Regardless, 1000 is a significantly low number of homeless people.

Mr. Smartypants, if you go back and actually read my post you will realize that I did in fact say "more than 1000".
Just like 1000 is such a insignicant number of people that we shouldn't provide the small town with good public transport, I suppose.

What the fuck. That fucking post made no sense. If there is no incentive for people to do a certain job, what on earth do you think will possess people to do a job purely because they enjoy it?

Your incentive is purely money. You will get money. Your income is not the same as everybody else. I have said this many times and Neb has also explained this.
End of argument.
I will come back to the greed of the individual later.

lol @ BS textbooks.
I spent a year doing Retreat from the Global in Ext 1 English. In one fucking week I covered more about globalisation than you will cover in a year, so do us a favour and go and actually research globalisation. I can't believe I am seeing an argument based on a business studies text book.

If you were actually following, williamc said something along the lines of not being able to make up my own theories after completing only Preliminary Business Studies. Hence, the reference to the textbook. I will not be drawing the information from any other sources to prove that it is sufficient.
You really have a problem if you're reading my posts only to bring me down. Because it's not working. You're no where near wiping the floor, darling. Don't make it personal.

More business studies bullshit. Fuck off, there are already enough Michael Moore's in the world.

Screw Business Studies. I've been an activist working with Oxfam etc against these TNCs for years. I know they're taking over the world. You seem to think I've been brainwashed or something. You deny the fact that they're taking over. Not my problem and I really couldn't care less what you think.

Yeah. You know who pays in tax what some people earn a year?
Wealthy people!

I'd like to see you pay 47c in a dollar.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

Mr. Smartypants, if you go back and actually read my post you will realize that I did in fact say "more than 1000".
Just like 1000 is such a insignicant number of people that we shouldn't provide the small town with good public transport, I suppose.

don't go dragging other threads into this one. and for the record, I live in a small town in a big district, in Sydney, so my comments were valid. it's not like I live in the fucking outback, ok.

Your incentive is purely money. You will get money. Your income is not the same as everybody else. I have said this many times and Neb has also explained this.
End of argument.
I will come back to the greed of the individual later.

Ok. I hope you realise that the greed of the individual is not something you can change. You will have to work around it for your system to work.

P.S boris is a girl.

 

[boris]

Mr. Smartypants, if you go back and actually read my post you will realize that I did in fact say "more than 1000".
Just like 1000 is such a insignicant number of people that we shouldn't provide the small town with good public transport, I suppose.

1001 is more than 1000 people. So is 1002! If a town has 1000 people it's fucking small enough for them to walk everywhere. I fail to see your analogy.

Your incentive is purely money. You will get money. Your income is not the same as everybody else. I have said this many times and Neb has also explained this.
End of argument.
I will come back to the greed of the individual later.

Yes, yes, we know your argument, and we've all proven why your argument is shit.
'omg people are sooo greedy'
'omg poor people in africa'
'omg 1000 homeless people'
'omg transnational corporations are baaad!'

I don't think your argument can get any more cliched. You're welcome to try.

If you were actually following, williamc said something along the lines of not being able to make up my own theories after completing only Preliminary Business Studies. Hence, the reference to the textbook. I will not be drawing the information from any other sources to prove that it is sufficient.
You really have a problem if you're reading my posts only to bring me down. Because it's not working. You're no where near wiping the floor, darling. Don't make it personal.

You know what the rest of us were doing when we were in year 11/12 and were discussing shit like this? We used our search engine and we read from a wide range of sources. We didn't reference our Preliminary Business Studies text book, and if we did, we sure as hell didn't tell anybody about it.
It's not sufficient. You're regurgitating retarded theories from a school subject. Not once have you sourced credible information.

Screw Business Studies. I've been an activist working with Oxfam etc against these TNCs for years. I know they're taking over the world. You seem to think I've been brainwashed or something. You deny the fact that they're taking over. Not my problem and I really couldn't care less what you think.

:roll eyes:

I'd like to see you pay 47c in a dollar.

I wouldn't. It would piss me off to be making so much money and then paying half of it to tax.

Currently, according to our revised tax brackets, I pay this much;

$3,600 + 30% for each dollar over $30,000 (maximum tax in this bracket is $3,600 + $13,500= $17,100)

My mum pays this much;
$17,100 + 40% for each dollar over $75,000 (maximum tax in this bracket is $17,100 + $30,000 = $47,100)

Knowing how hard she works it's pretty discouraging when you're paying a fucktonne of tax because you've put in the effort to get a well paying job.

 

[bassistx]

don't go dragging other threads into this one. and for the record, I live in a small town in a big district, in Sydney, so my comments were valid. it's not like I live in the fucking outback, ok.

I was being sarcastic, don't take it vindictively.

Ok. I hope you realise that the greed of the individual is not something you can change. You will have to work around it for your system to work.

I said I as coming back to this. You're rebutting before I have even presented anything.

P.S boris is a girl.

I know she's a girl (supposedly). But if "Male" allows you to be taken seriously, so be it.

 

[williamc]

I know she's a girl (supposedly). But if "Male" allows you to be taken seriously, so be it.

fucken olol.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

I was being sarcastic, don't take it vindictively.



I said I as coming back to this. You're rebutting before I have even presented anything.


I know she's a girl (supposedly). But if "Male" allows you to be taken seriously, so be it.

I'm not rebutting. I can't, you haven't said anything. Yet.

I was just making the point that you can't change it. No matter what you do. You cannot.

 

[williamc]

I wouldn't. It would piss me off to be making so much money and then paying half of it to tax.

Currently, according to our revised tax brackets, I pay this much;

$3,600 + 30% for each dollar over $30,000 (maximum tax in this bracket is $3,600 + $13,500= $17,100)

My mum pays this much;
$17,100 + 40% for each dollar over $75,000 (maximum tax in this bracket is $17,100 + $30,000 = $47,100)

Knowing how hard she works it's pretty discouraging when you're paying a fucktonne of tax because you've put in the effort to get a well paying job.

Go live in america and hope the republicans win the election.

 

[boris]

Go live in america and hope the republicans win the election.

Nah.
According to that political calculator I'm 100% Republican, but I don't follow American politics enough to know what that makes me.

 

[Smithereens]

And who donates the goods to the government? Governments need money, full stop.


You're seriously sad for making this discussion between you and myself.



Mr. Smartypants, if you go back and actually read my post you will realize that I did in fact say "more than 1000".
Just like 1000 is such a insignicant number of people that we shouldn't provide the small town with good public transport, I suppose.




Your incentive is purely money. You will get money. Your income is not the same as everybody else. I have said this many times and Neb has also explained this.
End of argument.
I will come back to the greed of the individual later.



If you were actually following, williamc said something along the lines of not being able to make up my own theories after completing only Preliminary Business Studies. Hence, the reference to the textbook. I will not be drawing the information from any other sources to prove that it is sufficient.
You really have a problem if you're reading my posts only to bring me down. Because it's not working. You're no where near wiping the floor, darling. Don't make it personal.



Screw Business Studies. I've been an activist working with Oxfam etc against these TNCs for years. I know they're taking over the world. You seem to think I've been brainwashed or something. You deny the fact that they're taking over. Not my problem and I really couldn't care less what you think.



I'd like to see you pay 47c in a dollar.

Fuck off you skank. Stop making GENERALISATIONS and using evidence that is so biased that you'd make shame of Piers Akerman.

Stop confusing your ideals with REALITY.