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Does God exist? (10 Viewers)

do you believe in god?


  • Total voters
    1,568

blue_chameleon

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Not-That-Bright said:
...because I can't know the thoughts and actions definitively of millions of people, I can't make any sort of judgement based upon what I do currently know?
You can towards the people that you are basing your views off, but when it comes to extending this view unto the greater population of Christians/Muslims/Buddhists etc, I would say you risk being seen as stereotyping, because im certain that there are far greater numbers of people that would discredit your view.

As far as religion having a "visible impact", thats quite a subjective area. Each person is different, and indeed you might only see the tip of the iceberg of how someones life has been/is being changed, over a certain period.
 

Not-That-Bright

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You can towards the people that you are basing your views off, but when it comes to extending this view unto the greater population of Christians/Muslims/Buddhists etc, I would say you risk being seen as stereotyping, because im certain that there are far greater numbers of people that would discredit your view.
I don't think I'm stereotyping at all, because the amount of people that truly follow the 'bible' to the best of their ability are a very small amount. If they were not, they would become visible. If the majority of Christians in Australia, did truly believe in their god (followed the orders of said god to the best of their ability) then Australia would be a far different place.

ecause im certain that there are far greater numbers of people that would discredit your view.
What do you mean discredit my view? Do you mean to say there are huge numbers of people that do everything in their power to do what their god asks of them? I doubt it.

As far as religion having a "visible impact", thats quite a subjective area. Each person is different, and indeed you might only see the tip of the iceberg of how someones life has been/is being changed, over a certain period.
What I mean is... you believe God wants you to do certain things - right? If you really believed that your god was commanding you to do certain things you would at least try to the best of your ability to do them.
 
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blue_chameleon

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Not-That-Bright said:
I don't think I'm stereotyping at all, because the amount of people that truly follow the 'bible' to the best of their ability are a very small amount. If they were not, they would become visible. If the majority of Christians in Australia, did truly believe in their god (followed the orders of said god to the best of their ability) then Australia would be a far different place.
How can you say you know the amount of people that "truly follow the bible to the best of their ability" being very small? Thats why I was pointing out what you're trying to suggest is like somebody floating in the antarctic and spotting an iceberg. Yeah you can see it, but what you see is only a very small percentage of the actual iceberg. I do agree that there would be a lot more people having a much bigger influence if they reached their full potential all at the same time, but how do you know that there arent heaps of people just inches away? Things are changing already. I know quite a few people with big plans that are soon to come into fruition. From what im allowed to give info on, il work out figures and events and post them up. Going beyond media events, you cant expect to everyone to be visible can you? Although there are inroads being made in regards to television and media, not everyone is called to this.

Im definately interested to know you thoughts on how you see Australia would be different though.

Not-That-Bright said:
What do you mean discredit my view? Do you mean to say there are huge numbers of people that do everything in their power to do what their god asks of them? I doubt it.
Yes, there are. Its perfectly fine for you to "doubt it", but to right it off completely is being extremely ignorant.
For example, I have extremely successful friends who come from South Africa, who just when they were reaping the rewards from their hard work over the years, they up and relocate to Australia, a country where they have no family, no understanding, no friends, and have to start all over again...because they felt that is where God wants them to be.
I guess you cant fully appreciate this story for what it is, simply because you would need to know a lot more about them. But leading into my point, if they werent following God in everything they do, then they wouldnt be here, because moving here was certainly the last thing they wanted to do. So thats just one example of two people "living for God", and hence doing everything in their power to what God asks of them. In fact, it could be said that they needed to go beyond 'everything in their power' to get them here, because of how intent they were on staying in South Africa. There are indeed a lot more similiar stories of people with incredible trust and faith in God.


Not-That-Bright said:
What I mean is... you believe God wants you to do certain things - right? If you really believed that your god was commanding you to do certain things you would at least try to the best of your ability to do them.
I believe God does want me to do certain things and those things He speaks to me about, heck I dont 'try to the best of my ability' to get them done, I make them happen regardless of whether I cant do it in my own strength or not. But I also believe that God has given us choice. The difference between Him wanting us to do certain things and Him commanding us to do certain things, is choice.
Yes, in saying that, it can be easily misconstrued that if we have choice, then we can just choose what obey do and what not to obey, as to not pull us out of our comfort zones of what we know. For greater reasons than you and I can understand, some people do take that path so I do accept the point you make as being valid.
For me, and im sure a lot of others as well when things get start to get tough, the reason im not hesitant, or dont fear doing things I cant understand myself (which totally goes against my persona), comes back to understanding what im getting from it, and the 'track record' of being in similiar circumstances when there is nothing else to rely on.
 
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Not-That-Bright

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How can you say you know the amount of people that "truly follow the bible to the best of their ability" being very small? Thats why I was pointing out what you're trying to suggest is like somebody floating in the antarctic and spotting an iceberg. Yeah you can see it, but what you see is only a very small percentage of the actual iceberg.
Err not really, because what I'm talking about is measuring it by its impact on me. I am assuming that if there were many people whom REALLY believed in God then my world would be dramatically different.

I do agree that there would be a lot more people having a much bigger influence if they reached their full potential all at the same time, but how do you know that there arent heaps of people just inches away?
They don't have to reach their 'full potential' they just have to try. I.e. Church on sunday, i.e. Adultery.

Things are changing already. I know quite a few people with big plans that are soon to come into fruition.
Oh noes... out comes the "perpetual motion machine lune" line of argument.

From what im allowed to give info on, il work out figures and events and post them up. Going beyond media events, you cant expect to everyone to be visible can you? Although there are inroads being made in regards to television and media, not everyone is called to this.
oic..

Im definately interested to know you thoughts on how you see Australia would be different though.
- The church would be booming and rich.
- People would be flocking to become ministers, learn more about God.
- Study of religion (or christianity) would be a base course in the HSC and it would talk about it as if it were fact.
- People would be much more generous, giving all their posessions to the poor.
-etc...

I.e. it would be reverse-australia.

Yes, there are. Its perfectly fine for you to "doubt it", but to right it off completely is being extremely ignorant.
Where are they?

I have extremely successful friends who come from South Africa, who just when they were reaping the rewards from their hard work over the years, they up and relocate to Australia, a country where they have no family, no understanding, no friends, and have to start all over again...because they felt that is where God wants them to be.
lol! It's no big sacrafice for someone to come to Australia. It sure is odd how God's wishes always end up being the same as the person's wishes whom claims they are those of Gods :p

I guess you cant fully appreciate this story for what it is, simply because you would need to know a lot more about them.
One story doesn't matter anyway, there are some people out there whom I believe truly believe in God - just very few.

But leading into my point, if they werent following God in everything they do, then they wouldnt be here, because moving here was certainly the last thing they wanted to do.
Meh how do we know it's the last thing they wanted to do? What's so bad about Australia? It seems unlikely to me that someone could hate the idea of going to Australia so much, but oh well.

So thats just one example of two people "living for God", and hence doing everything in their power to what God asks of them.
Well... that's like me saying "God told me to go on a holiday" - therefore I'm doing God's bidding. Are they attending church every sunday (unless so ill it's impossible to make it), are they inviting the poor into their homes, are they giving large portions of money to the poor?

IMO Doing something "because God told you to do it" isn't really what I was after, especially when it's something that appears to have a decent probability of co-inciding with the wishes of the person whom claims it is God's wishes.

In fact, it could be said that they needed to go beyond 'everything in their power' to get them here, because of how intent they were on staying in South Africa. There are indeed a lot more similiar stories of people with incredible trust and faith in God.
Lame story, doesn't do squat for your case. This is such a bad defense... surely you could find a story of someone whom's living in the streets every night, helping the poor - for god!

I believe God does want me to do certain things and those things He speaks to me about, heck I dont 'try to the best of my ability' to get them done, I make them happen regardless of whether I cant do it in my own strength or not.
Then I think you're nuts and an extreme minority of God believers. But at the same time I DON'T think you do everything in your power that you think God wants you to do, otherwise how do you justify sitting here on your computer making these posts when you could be out helping the needy? Are you telling me God prefers you to be on the computer, or that it's out of your power to stop posting and go out and help the needy (no, it's not).

Essentially - You're not doing everything in your power to do what I'm sure you believe your God wishes of you and the reason why is because you don't believe it in the same sense as you believe the sun will rise tomorrow.

But I also believe that God has given us choice. The difference between Him wanting us to do certain things and Him commanding us to do certain things, is choice.
Of course, but if you truly believed in God, that he is the 100% moderator of truth then would you not want to do everything he told you to do... because it is DEFINATELY the right thing to do. If you believed in God the choice would be easy.

I'm sorry, but I still don't believe many Australians believe in God.
 

blue_chameleon

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transcendent said:
So when God talks to you does he sms or email you?
Yeah, mostly by telegram. But nowadays, what with the advancements in technology and all, email is a lot more efficient for the both of us. :)
 

blue_chameleon

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Where are they?
Are you even looking? If you still cant find people, I suggest that you at least go and research some of Hillsong's streets programs they are running at the moment. From what I see from those guys, they are doing anything but sitting on their hands.

lol! It's no big sacrafice for someone to come to Australia. It sure is odd how God's wishes always end up being the same as the person's wishes whom claims they are those of Gods :p...Meh how do we know it's the last thing they wanted to do? What's so bad about Australia? It seems unlikely to me that someone could hate the idea of going to Australia so much, but oh well.
Its not the location they to which they moved which is the key issue here, rather the circumstances under which they had to make the decision. You dont know enough about their story to comment any further, so lets just leave it at that.

One story doesn't matter anyway, there are some people out there whom I believe truly believe in God - just very few.
One story might not matter to you but thats ok, because this isnt solely intented for you and I have quite a number of similiar stories of people from the same church, let alone other churches I know of.

...Are they attending church every sunday (unless so ill it's impossible to make it), are they inviting the poor into their homes, are they giving large portions of money to the poor?
In answer to your questions.....they are pastors at the church now, and they are head of the youth events, so they attend church Friday til 11pm, Sunday all day. Since they have been here, which is going on almost 12 months, they have never missed a Sunday service, irrespective of whether they are ill or not. They organise huge events from scratch, putting their own money into get events off the ground (we're talking in excess of $10,000 an event), they are more than happy to have anybody stay at their house, and once again, on top of pouring money into youth events and conferences, they also have been a large contributor to missions projects that the church currently runs in Russia and Indonesia.

IMO Doing something "because God told you to do it" isn't really what I was after, especially when it's something that appears to have a decent probability of co-inciding with the wishes of the person whom claims it is God's wishes.
I dont see the "decent probability" anywhere from knowing what I know. But I can understand it from your point of view, which is why I pointed out that the extent of Dylan and Anna's case was most likely not going to be understood for what it really was.


... surely you could find a story of someone whom's living in the streets every night, helping the poor - for god!
The church runs missions projects, building other churches in Indonesia and Russia, as well as providing support to the less fortunate people in those areas. Not too long ago, there were a group of people sent to China, and well if you're not familiar with China, any person carrying a Bible would be killed. There is an affiliation with Compassion Australia, and more locally they run an outreach program in Gosford which see's hundreds of homeless people fed and cared for every night, thousands every week. And Gosford is only the beginning of the plans.


...But at the same time I DON'T think you do everything in your power that you think God wants you to do, otherwise how do you justify sitting here on your computer making these posts when you could be out helping the needy? Are you telling me God prefers you to be on the computer, or that it's out of your power to stop posting and go out and help the needy (no, it's not)...Essentially - You're not doing everything in your power to do what I'm sure you believe your God wishes of you and the reason why is because you don't believe it in the same sense as you believe the sun will rise tomorrow.
Hmmm, thats quite a bold statement you're making about me. But nonetheless, I will answer the question.
My justification for making these posts is simple. You have questions, and I feel that if I can answer even one question you have, in a manner that would result in you having a better understanding of the topic at hand, then I am indeed helping a needy person. Of course, you're not AS needy as someone in Ethiopia that starves, but well with the man upstairs calling me to reach out to poeple in less fortunate countries, then I feel content that im indeed doing all that I am capable of doing with what I have in my hands.

I sponsor two children from Ghana and Bolivia (Joseph,7 and Leydi,11) through Compassion Australia, for $50/month each, so that is $100/month im commited to until they both reach 18, which quite a few people would be spending on a single night out on the town. As im a full-time uni student working one day a week, it doesnt leave much over. In terms of time, for the next three years (hopefully four) I have uni commitments from monday - thursday, other days either studying or working.
So, if you havent worked out yet, there's not much time for anything else. Im not complaining though, I couldnt be happier. I hope this has gone some way to clearing up things for you when it comes to you proposing im not doing all I can.
Now with you being so involved in discussion topics on BoS (referring to post count), and not following in the footsteps of pretending to know somebody(without knowing anything more about you), one would think the sheer amount of time you spend on discussions in here has to reflect at least something about the life you lead.
 
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Not-That-Bright

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Are you even looking? If you still cant find people, I suggest that you at least go and research some of Hillsong's streets programs they are running at the moment. From what I see from those guys, they are doing anything but sitting on their hands.
Meh, must I get started on the problems with members of hillsong? Or the ethicacy of the organisation its self?

ts not the location they to which they moved which is the key issue here, rather the circumstances under which they had to make the decision. You dont know enough about their story to comment any further, so lets just leave it at that.
Ok whatever, I can do that too. <Insert story here> do not make any queries about it, but lets just say it disproves your argument.

One story might not matter to you but thats ok, because this isnt solely intented for you and I have quite a number of similiar stories of people from the same church, let alone other churches I know of.
Yea but similar stories to that one? That one is the story of some people moving country then saying God told them too... WOAH!!!!!!!!!!

In answer to your questions.....they are pastors at the church now, and they are head of the youth events, so they attend church Friday til 11pm, Sunday all day. Since they have been here, which is going on almost 12 months, they have never missed a Sunday service, irrespective of whether they are ill or not. They organise huge events from scratch, putting their own money into get events off the ground (we're talking in excess of $10,000 an event), they are more than happy to have anybody stay at their house, and once again, on top of pouring money into youth events and conferences, they also have been a large contributor to missions projects that the church currently runs in Russia and Indonesia.
Perhaps these people truly do believe in God then - They are one of the lunatic fringe minority. I never said that ALL don't believe in God that claim they do, just most.

I dont see the "decent probability" anywhere from knowing what I know. But I can understand it from your point of view, which is why I pointed out that the extent of Dylan and Anna's case was most likely not going to be understood for what it really was.
<Insert story here> that you can not debunk. Anecdotal evidence = Nothing.


Ethiopia that starves, but well with the man upstairs calling me to reach out to poeple in less fortunate countries, then I feel content that im indeed doing all that I am capable of doing with what I have in my hands.
Unfortunately you're not doing all you're capable of.

I sponsor two children from Ghana and Bolivia (Joseph,7 and Leydi,11) through Compassion Australia, for $50/month each, so that is $100/month im commited to until they both reach 18, which quite a few people would be spending on a single night out on the town. As im a full-time uni student working one day a week, it doesnt leave much over. In terms of time, for the next three years (hopefully four) I have uni commitments from monday - thursday, other days either studying or working.
You don't have to study... you don't have to go to uni... is that what's going to be most beneficial for others, or yourself?

Now with you being so involved in discussion topics on BoS (referring to post count), and not following in the footsteps of pretending to know somebody(without knowing anything more about you), one would think the sheer amount of time you spend on discussions in here has to reflect at least something about the life you lead.
I don't care how you lead your life personally, I just think if your God exists, then he would care. Truth is I don't mind if you're greedy.

I don't want to make this a personal thing where I'm calling you a 'bad person', truth is I don't want to judge you like that. I really find it amazing that you're feigning anger when I claim that you're not doing everything you can to help the needy... I'm not, most people aren't. However, If I truly believed in God, I would.
 

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either you believe in God or you don't. the thing is, that believers don't need proof, they have their faith. and even if a believer could show proof to a agnostic person, how would he know that it is valid?

for example can you really prove how the world was created? both religious theories and science have their flaus and it is up to you what you want to believe in.
 

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transcendent said:
read through thread then comment. your post has, 'i can't be bothered' written across it.
i do bother, otherwise i wouldn't have answered at all. i admit i didn't read the whole thread, but on what i read i found that there where a lot of posts about proof (how it was needed and so on) and therefore i made that answer.
 

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transcendent said:
read through thread then comment. your post has, 'i can't be bothered' written across it.
Given the size of this thread (and its cyclical nature), I really don't think it's fair to expect a new member/participant to read through the entire thread before they respond. I do realise that 'blind' posts are an annoyance for those who have long been involved in the debate, but I'm afraid that the old-timers are just going to have to live with the pain.
 

blue_chameleon

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Not-That-Bright said:
Meh, must I get started on the problems with members of hillsong? Or the ethicacy of the organisation its self?
You're so quick to attack these guys, yet you have never stepped foot in this church. Of course, we really do have independent opinions here dont we? But heck, if you regard Hillsong in that light, then you obviously never will get to see it first hand.

Perhaps these people truly do believe in God then - They are one of the lunatic fringe minority. I never said that ALL don't believe in God that claim they do, just most.
What exactly do you mean by lunatic fringe minority?

Unfortunately you're not doing all you're capable of.
Why yes of course not. Please do tell me, knowing my capabilities, what I am not doing enough of. After all, that is what I was referring to, my capabilities. If I were referring to my wants and plans, then heck no im not doing anything near what I want to be doing. But right now...realistically.


You don't have to study... you don't have to go to uni... is that what's going to be most beneficial for others, or yourself?
On the contrary, I DO have to study, and go to uni to accomplish my goals. Since when have the paths to helping people been so narrow? Yeah sure, I could become a missionary and help kids and families across impoverished nations, although there are other ways of being just as influencial in what they are doing. Its bigger than one direction and one strategy.


I just think if your God exists, then he would care. Truth is I don't mind if you're greedy.
Can you explain that to me in a bit more detail? Its not a personal attack, yet you say IM not doing enough, and im being (greedy?) because I dont follow the path that you expect me to follow? Going further, you seem to have a picture in your head of what I should be doing, but how could that be what im supposed to do, because im not following you directions, right? Thats all im thinking when I look at that comment and try to understand it.

I don't want to make this a personal thing where I'm calling you a 'bad person', truth is I don't want to judge you like that. I really find it amazing that you're feigning anger when I claim that you're not doing everything you can to help the needy... I'm not, most people aren't. However, If I truly believed in God, I would.
Not personal? Ok then im glad thats sorted, because there were some signs that would suggest otherwise. What am I angry about though?
 

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Not-That-Bright said:
Actually I don't see that much of it. In fact I don't argue against what religious people think so much as the non-possibility of god, this is the first time I or anyone else imo has brought up anything that makes some assumptions about the inner workings of what religious people think.



Fine, as far as I can tell, you're one of these people that has a view of God that you de-attach from basically any attribute (other than existing) in an argument so that whatever argued does not affect you. If you want to have such a view on the existance of God, why bother? If your God is essentially nothing but some sort of cosmic force that began the universe, than imo you're using the commonplace definition of a God very liberally.



Of course it is based on what I think they (would) do if they believed in God, compared with what I see now - That's all I have to work off in making such a judgement. If you want to disagree with that, I don't think it suffices to simply say "you don't know everything about people" - are you trying to claim beyond their hethen ways when they're at home alone they're constantly praising God and begging forgiveness?



It's like me saying "most people value life" - Do you consider that to be a psychic statement?

Imo this is such a weak argument to attack me on I don't know why you bother. So because I can't know the thoughts and actions definitively of millions of people, I can't make any sort of judgement based upon what I do currently know? I'm sorry but that's not feasible - I've said "Well I think people whom believe in God would be acting differently, Christians would be attending church on sunday, muslims would not dare not fast properly, etc" - most peoples vision of God is an interventionist, moralist God whom has set down rules for people to follow... now shouldn't this have some visible impact on peoples lives?

Show me it and stop this silly line of argument.
So we'd agree that all you're actually saying is 'some people may or may not be doing what I think they should be doing if they believed in God, therefore God doesn't exist'?
 

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i don't think he's saying God doesn't exist but that the 'followers' are apparently not dedicating enough of their lives to God because if God really was such a pedantic jealous god he feels the majority of worshippers aren't doing enough to please him but that in itself is rather silly notion because no one knows what God really wants and those that do are insane, George W Bush, choir boy loving priests, the Vatican, Hillsong spoilt kids brainwashed puppets or the disillusioned.
 

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