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Does God exist? (2 Viewers)

do you believe in god?


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Meistro

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BAHAHAHHAHHAH oh oh..Oh..oh it just keeps going.

-Hey hey god is real i mean how else did we get here
=No fool, we got here with science
-God made science dickhead
=No science proved god isnt real..no duh

SAVE ME JEEBUS! round and round and round it goes in its incoherent, poitnless, trivial, argumentative, egotistic little manner.

-Im right
=No im right
-Im smarter
=I have faith
-I have facts
=I have a soul

Bakc and forth and back... uhhh isnt the whole history of holy wars and a couple thousand related posts enough to make you guys realise "ohriiiiiight its not worth arguing over, each to their own eh!"
Or are we seriously going to sit around mindlessly stabbing our indulgent opinions into the keyboard waiting for one side to unanimously announce "IVE CONVERTED.. net told me to!"

heh.
 

gerhard

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the people who's views will be changed by argument will never be the people arguing, because they have too much invested in it already.

believe it or not, people who have no strong belief either way can and will form their own beliefs based on the arguments they have read.
 

Meistro

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gerhard said:
the people who's views will be changed by argument will never be the people arguing, because they have too much invested in it already.
...
....
.
...
WHA?
too much invested in what? Rephrase please.

believe it or not, people who have no strong belief either way can and will form their own beliefs based on the arguments they have read.
Do NOT believe it. Id imagine they would form their own beliefs based on intelligent discussion. The vast majority of whats going on here is an immature ego battle.
And why argue if the only point is to influence those who are not involved in the argument? WHy be so insecure that you cant just let it be and think "right, its ok when peoples innermost personal beliefs differ to mine."

...its about as usefull as persuing a debate over tastes in music
-I like rock
=Nah hip hops better man
-Rock has expression
=and hip hop doesnt?

ITS ALL GOOD...its only fucking annoying when you start to force your beliefs onto others. Cant we all shut our self righteous mouths? Serioisly i read another few pages and this whole thread ISNT about education and discussion, its simply a big arsed argument to achieve nothing.
 

ur_inner_child

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I personally feel it achieves a great deal. I think this thread gave me a good nudge toward the right direction, especially during its early days as well as when it was "Part One" rather than "continued". It encouraged me to admit that there was no evidence for the existence of God, not from a scientific and logical view anyway. This is a huge step for anyone who just blindly accepts what religion spoonfeeds.

Also, as someone who is always spiritually searching, I take joy in reading different views on spirituality, whether they are christian, muslim, protestant, agnostic, apathetic, atheist, anything. The fact of the matter is is that most religious types, anyone who is passionate about their beliefs will be loud about their religion. Religion isn't a personal thing anymore, if it ever was. Religion affects us in our day to day basis, when we look upon someone who is different. Even if you say you tolerate those religiously or spiritually different from you, if your religion dictates that those who do not follow your beliefs will go to hell and are sinful, you will pass some kind of judgement over them. You will think something when your friend gets an abortion, or supports stem cell research, or has sex before marriage, or takes a morning after pill, or has a homosexual brother, or wants to be a surrogate mother, or marries someone fifteen years older than her. A religion is a system of values and these values communicate with everyone and everything around you. Your values say something about other people's values. That pro-choicers are murderers etc.

I don't care what your stance on any of those touchy issues are but religion is such a huge thing. Everyday values is such a big thing and if we just shut outselves from each others values and try not to understand then I think its the most foolish thing you could do.

Evidence of whether God exists allows religious people to use some logic and understand that no there isn't solid evidence scientifically and logically anyway.

This isn't necessarily such a bad thing, considering stepping back to look at your religion objectively is valuable, not only to maybe reaffirm your faith, but to question and make sure that what you follow which dictates your life and the way you live it is in fact the right thing to follow. I think religious or not, you're going to have to agree to that.

/raaannnttt
 
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Meistro

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ur_inner_child said:
I personally feel it achieves a great deal. I think this thread gave me a good nudge toward the right direction, especially during its early days as well as when it was "Part One" rather than "continued". It encouraged me to admit that there was no evidence for the existence of God, not from a scientific and logical view anyway. This is a huge step for anyone who just blindly accepts what religion spoonfeeds.
Ok, now that i see it i guess i believe it. I stand corrected that noone takes this discussion seriously.

The fact of the matter is is that most religious types, anyone who is passionate about their beliefs will be loud about their religion. Religion isn't a personal thing anymore, if it ever was. .
And thats simply what i dissagree with. It IS personal, i think it should be kept that way. While its fine to discuss religion (yes, its intriguing at times) its so easy to get frustrated and and up insulting peoples beliefs; a pointless act which achieves nothing.

I don't care what your stance on any of those touchy issues are but religion is such a huge thing.
Ok, so ill keep my thoughts to my self on all matters religious. Fine by me.
Everyday values is such a big thing and if we just shut outselves from each others values and try not to understand then I think its the most foolish thing you could do.
So do you care or dont you?
Yes, i agree, not making an effort to understand IS the dumbest thing you could do. Hence my problem with some of the things ive read here.


This isn't necessarily such a bad thing, considering stepping back to look at your religion objectively is valuable, not only to maybe reaffirm your faith, but to question and make sure that what you follow which dictates your life and the way you live it is in fact the right thing to follow. I think religious or not, you're going to have to agree to that.

/raaannnttt
Yes, stepping back and looking at ones faith objectively is a great idea. We all should do it. But once again ITS PERSONAL. In the end its about the individual being happy.

I guess i should expect that a thread on religion would be so preachy, its a bit wanky really. I just think the thread needs more accpetance and less conceit.
Listen to others, try to understand them, dont try change their minds. Whatever floats their boat. Theres no right or wrong. Whatever you believe, whatever makes you happy.

Thats all i was saying.
 

Not-That-Bright

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And thats simply what i dissagree with. It IS personal, i think it should be kept that way. While its fine to discuss religion (yes, its intriguing at times) its so easy to get frustrated and and up insulting peoples beliefs; a pointless act which achieves nothing.
It's impossible for some religious beliefs to remain personal, not affect your actions / have an impact on other people.
 

Meistro

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Not-That-Bright said:
It's impossible for some religious beliefs to remain personal, not affect your actions / have an impact on other people.
ofcourse they affect your actions, but i dont really see why those actions should have an impact on other people. Keep mouth shut. Awww so simple.
 

Not-That-Bright

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Let me give one example, some christians believe they are living in the end times, so why should they care about problems relating to the environment etc that will only affect future generations?
 

Meistro

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Not-That-Bright said:
Let me give one example, some christians believe they are living in the end times, so why should they care about problems relating to the environment etc that will only affect future generations?
Ok, point taken... but its a pretty far fetched point. Yes im sure SOME christians believe that. But im more talking about direct effects on other people.
Also im sure the general self obsessed consumerist public really masks the environmental effect of the crazy christians... Personally i find the ones outside town hall who follow me down the street yelling "WHAT IF YOU GET HIT BY A CAR AND YOU NEVER FOUND GOD" to be more of a problem... i mean theres no need for that. Its not about my safety, its some sick power trip. Why cant he be happy that hes going to heaven and simply accept the fact i dont want to? Why cant he simply pray for me if he really cares? Why does it have to be a full fledged attack? Why cant religion = peace like its supposed to ffs? drives me insane.
 

Not-That-Bright

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Ok, point taken... but its a pretty far fetched point. Yes im sure SOME christians believe that.
Well actually quite a large number of christians believe it, I don't think it's that far fetched... but if you want ones that apply to a wider variety of people look to ur_inner_child's post. If you believe there are these rules out there, set by God, that must be followed.. there's a good chance that one of the things you believe could come into conflict with what may, at least appear, to be better for humanity.

Why cant religion = peace like its supposed to ffs?
Supposed to? I don't know where you got that idea from. Christ himself said that he did not come to bring peace.

Here's an example of someone who's religious beliefs could quite possibly affect all of us.

In an interview with the Florida Baptist Witness on August 24, 2006, Harris stated that if Baptist voters do not elect Christians, then they would be endorsing the legislation of sin.[55]

But the real issue is why should Baptists care, why should people care? If you are not electing Christians, tried and true, under public scrutiny and pressure, if you're not electing Christians then in essence you are going to legislate sin. They can legislate sin. They can say that abortion is alright. They can vote to sustain gay marriage. And that will take western civilization, indeed other nations because people look to our country as one nation as under God and whenever we legislate sin and we say abortion is permissible and we say gay unions are permissible, then average citizens who are not Christians, because they don't know better, we are leading them astray and it's wrong.

Harris also described the separation of church and state as a "lie we have been told" to keep religious people out of politics, and stated that "God is the one who chooses our rulers." [55]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katherine_Harris

Can you imagine if more people like her get elected into the US legislature? lol
 
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Meistro

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Not-That-Bright said:
Well actually quite a large number of christians believe it, I don't think it's that far fetched... but if you want ones that apply to a wider variety of people look to ur_inner_child's post. If you believe there are these rules out there, set by God, that must be followed.. there's a good chance that one of the things you believe could come into conflict with what may, at least appear, to be better for humanity.



Supposed to? I don't know where you got that idea from. Christ himself said that he did not come to bring peace.

Here's an example of someone who's religious beliefs could quite possibly affect all of us.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katherine_Harris

Can you imagine if more people like her get elected into the US legislature? lol
Hahhaah good old republicans. Anyway if i continue to argue its pretty much only for the sake of arguing. Ive made my views clear, and to continue would be well.. hypocritical to say the least. Im not going to get into the nitty gritty of every aspect of what youve said. I pretty much agree with you anyway (to an extent).
Peace Out.
 
L

littlewing69

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T-mac01 said:
However, what I can say about Aliens is that they are beings that are not as divine as humans. Their influences has corrupted our principles.
No, silly. The Jews are the ones corrupting humanity.


/conspiracy theories of all sorts are fun
 

T-mac01

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Religion has gotten little by little less to do with God. So don't mix the Jews, politics with spirituality.
Religion is not the work of God but mortals. Yet, mortals are influenced by their physical environments that varies in their own expectations, pain threshold and desires, etc. So for people to judge what is their own belief or what is the truth or mysteries, they first need to stay detached from Religion. This is because God tend not to involve with insignificant social issues. So for people seeking the truth, only a peace of mind can help to obtain some truths. This is why meditation was known.
 

T-mac01

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Not-That-Bright said:
'Supreme' to what? what is the criteria? This whole argument seems to be nothing but rhetoric.



Such as?



lol proof beyond?



Divine? Aliens? WTH?



To go to hell or something?



Proof of a 'third eye'? Proof of these 'other dimensions (whatever the hell they mean)' ?



Because God exists on a dimension that we can only 'see' via our 'third eye'? That might be a good theory if it wasn't just trash.



Do they have beings higher than them also?



How convenient for the faithful.

First of all, I'm not here to argue. I'm here to offer some sources of information where some might appreciate.
Also, these things I've talked about are not faith. It's based on evidence and only those that have spent the time and the right fate might be able to collect. So I really don't see the right for you to knock other people's words which in many rights could be true and false. There is no certainty and evidence for you to completely disregard it. Lastly, you have no rights to judge it as you have obviously done little or no "research" on any of these topics.

In a way, I think it's more convenient for the "unfaithful" as no interpretation is ever needed. Again, there is a faith to have no faith. The faith to be lazily ignorant.
 

Not-That-Bright

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First of all, I'm not here to argue. I'm here to offer some sources of information where some might appreciate.
And I'm here to point out what I feel is wrong with your information so that such people can be better informed.

Also, these things I've talked about are not faith.
No it's all about faith.

It's based on evidence and only those that have spent the time and the right fate might be able to collect.
Based off bad/misguided evidence... for the rest of what you said, I can't even begin to decipher what you might mean.

So I really don't see the right for you to knock other people's words which in many rights could be true and false.
Well I have a right because I gave myself that right and no one has yet taken it away from me. I agree that when someone says something it has a possibility of being right or wrong, but that doesn't mean there should not be argument over such claims.

There is no certainty and evidence for you to completely disregard it.
I don't completely disregard it, I only disregard it as much as I disregard any other supernatural thing i.e. Santa Claus, The tooth fairy, Wizards etc. I cannot be certain about anything, I acknowledge that to the fullest, but that doesn't mean I always have to be in a state of uncertainty about the world around me. Based on current knowledge, I don't think there is proof of a 'Santa', so for the time being I'm willing to accept that Santa does not exist - as it is the best answer we can form at the current time.

Lastly, you have no rights to judge it as you have obviously done little or no "research" on any of these topics.
Well I know a bit about things, but I'm not an expert in every field... I will try my best and hopefully if I'm wrong someone will explain to me how I am instead of just saying 'You haven't done the research, I have, I'm right'. Personally I think you're probably not as clever as you like to imagine you are, there are some very smart theists out there but I just can't imagine:
Religion has gotten little by little less to do with God. So don't mix the Jews, politics with spirituality.
Religion is not the work of God but mortals. Yet, mortals are influenced by their physical environments that varies in their own expectations, pain threshold and desires, etc. So for people to judge what is their own belief or what is the truth or mysteries, they first need to stay detached from Religion. This is because God tend not to involve with insignificant social issues. So for people seeking the truth, only a peace of mind can help to obtain some truths. This is why meditation was known."
coming from the mind of any 'well researched' person.

The faith to be lazily ignorant.
How could anyone choose to not like heaven? As far as I've been told it is the 'perfect' place, so why the hell would I, if I was just being 'ignorant' choose to not believe?

I want to believe.
 
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T-mac01

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Not-That-Bright said:
And I'm here to point out what I feel is wrong with your information so that such people can be better informed.



No it's all about faith.



Based off bad/misguided evidence... for the rest of what you said, I can't even begin to decipher what you might mean.



Well I have a right because I gave myself that right and no one has yet taken it away from me. I agree that when someone says something it has a possibility of being right or wrong, but that doesn't mean there should not be argument over such claims.



I don't completely disregard it, I only disregard it as much as I disregard any other supernatural thing i.e. Santa Claus, The tooth fairy, Wizards etc. I cannot be certain about anything, I acknowledge that to the fullest, but that doesn't mean I always have to be in a state of uncertainty about the world around me. Based on current knowledge, I don't think there is proof of a 'Santa', so for the time being I'm willing to accept that Santa does not exist - as it is the best answer we can form at the current time.



Well I know a bit about things, but I'm not an expert in every field... I will try my best and hopefully if I'm wrong someone will explain to me how I am instead of just saying 'You haven't done the research, I have, I'm right'. Personally I think you're probably not as clever as you like to imagine you are, there are some very smart theists out there but I just can't imagine:

coming from the mind of any 'well researched' person.



How could anyone choose to not like heaven? As far as I've been told it is the 'perfect' place, so why the hell would I, if I was just being 'ignorant' choose to not believe?

I want to believe.

As a conclusion from your reply which isn't far fetched from what I'd expected, there is only enough explanation that I can do to cover all the gaps I've missed out. It's impossible for me to explain well of what I know. I'm not an expert as you have doubted and more likely than not, there are things I've misunderstood from readings or hearings. Again, I've only personally devoted very little time on these. I'm just a uni student doing engineering and business courses.
Somehow I've potrayed myself as a religious kind of person. Well, I'm as much of a scientologist as I am a keen discoverer of beyond this galaxy.
It's kinda disappointing to see you brought up Santa Claus. That is totally irrelevant and puts no credit for your opinions. It makes me doubt your knowledge in some strange way.
I'm not a theist. I dont' believe that there is only one God. I believe or I've gathered that there are countless levels of civilisations that are more "virtue" than humans in which we call them God. We are just a civilisation that are on the bottom level of divinity. We have our visions been taken away to fulfill specific purposes - I've already talked about that.

Faith. I can't really categorise my believe as faith. Maybe a bit like some facts gathered from one source of teachings and measure things with an abstract formula. But again, I wouldn't count on that description. But I can let you know that the difference between my faith and eg. christian faith, is that some were brought up as a religion or tradition passed down from family to family. I haven't had any of those instilled in me as a child. My view of all these was just based on a simple phrase "I don't know". It marked my degree of openess to the world unknown. From the past, I've only considered that whether there is God or not, one's action should only be based on the upcoming and hardship which we shall prepare for. So it really doesn't matter to what I would do. In the end, one thing I was certain is that I just wanted to be a good person. So there is no biased view in my opinions. So therefore, I don't really have the kind of faith that you had in mind. I also believe that it is necessary to people to make mistakes, knowingly and unknowingly. This is just to clarify that I haven't really been a good person.
 

Not-That-Bright

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As a conclusion from your reply which isn't far fetched from what I'd expected, there is only enough explanation that I can do to cover all the gaps I've missed out. It's impossible for me to explain well of what I know.
Ok but I hope you understand that I won't just take your word for it, I don't think you really do have this 'higher understanding' or whatever you believe it is, so far all you've served up is the usual rhetoric I've encountered now quite a few times even in just this thread.

Somehow I've potrayed myself as a religious kind of person. Well, I'm as much of a scientologist as I am a keen discoverer of beyond this galaxy.
I'm not really interesting in what sort of person you are, I just address your points.

It's kinda disappointing to see you brought up Santa Claus.
It's a good example imo, it gets the point accross and it doesn't have any real flaw... the only complain is usually that 'well we KNOW we made up Santa' or something along those lines. If you'd like, you can instead use the 'teapot atheist' example that is probably nicer.

IMHO though alot of the time there is an objection to using mythical creations in analogy with their 'god' is more that it just upsets people that the analogy is quite close.

That is totally irrelevant and puts no credit for your opinions.
It's not totally irrelevant at all. See above.

It makes me doubt your knowledge in some strange way.
You constantly question my 'knowledge', if I was an illiterate 16 year old mum would you not even consider the arguments I put forward?

I'm not a theist. I dont' believe that there is only one God.
Theist simply means that you believe in a higher being / higher beings. Monotheist means you believe in only one God.

I believe or I've gathered that there are countless levels of civilisations that are more "virtue" than humans in which we call them God.
I had the same sort of idea when I was little... I used to draw pictures and made up an entire little game for myself, drawing men shooting lazers at each other etc. I came up with the idea of there being 'Gods' that humans are aware of, then those people have their God's etc etc etc. So I imagine your idea isn't anything new, not that I believe you said it was. Just a little side-track there :)

Anyway, as for your claim... I see it as little different from a claim about the existance of God.

Faith. I can't really categorise my believe as faith. Maybe a bit like some facts gathered from one source of teachings and measure things with an abstract formula.
That would be faith in my book, believing in things based off abitary/meaningless rules is basically just believing for the sake of it.

But again, I wouldn't count on that description.
Of course not, we have to keep as vague as we can so that no one can actually challenge our beliefs - if we even have their beliefs we claim we do.

My view of all these was just based on a simple phrase "I don't know".
That's a fine philisophical principle to keep in mind, I do also, but I think it has its limits when applied in some cases.

From the past, I've only considered that whether there is God or not, one's action should only be based on the upcoming and hardship which we shall prepare for.
What are you on about here?

So there is no biased view in my opinions. So therefore, I don't really have the kind of faith that you had in mind.
You don't have to be some brainwashed idiot to become a 'faithful' person, very intelligent people can think about things alot and merely come to the wrong conclusion. Often this can be because they're not examining their own thinking critically enough.
 

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All I've seen from your comments is you want me to shut up. It is challenging for you to think any deeper than you are willing to accept. All your comebacks were how "[you] think" such and such should be. While you're quesitoning one person's knowledge, in this case, me. You're applying your own thoughts to judge what I've said. Ironically, you're sarcastically mocking my information as mere imagination. Whether your story about your childhood imagination was true or not is still doubtful to me.
Right now, I just feel that you are a helpless person who is unwilling to accept that there is nothing in the world that you would rather come closer to. You've countlessly used distortion as a tool. One occasion to the next, you've seemingly agreed to what I'd stated just to prove that you are not what I had proclaimed you are. The next occasion, you have mindlessly forgotten your last comment and aimlessly wondered to your next biased conclusion. In this case, to swear that I am wrong or mislead to whatever you think I'm discovering.
I don't see the need for me to justify and of the things I have said. People just shouldn't explain logic to a hungry wolf.
 
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littlewing69

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T-mac01 said:
All I've seen from your comments is you want me to shut up. It is challenging for you to think any deeper than you are willing to accept. All your comebacks were how "[you] think" such and such should be. While you're quesitoning one person's knowledge, in this case, me. You're applying your own thoughts to judge what I've said. Ironically, you're sarcastically mocking my information as mere imagination. Whether your story about your childhood imagination was true or not is still doubtful to me.
Right now, I just feel that you are a helpless person who is unwilling to accept that there is nothing in the world that you would rather come closer to. You've countlessly used distortion as a tool. One occasion to the next, you've seemingly agreed to what I'd stated just to prove that you are not what I had proclaimed you are. The next occasion, you have mindlessly forgotten your last comment and aimlessly wondered to your next biased conclusion. In this case, to swear that I am wrong or mislead to whatever you think I'm discovering.
I don't see the need for me to justify and of the things I have said. People just shouldn't explain logic to a hungry wolf.

You haven't said a damn thing that makes sense.
 

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