Does God exist? (4 Viewers)

[phatic]

If it cannot be tested then there's no reason to believe it. I would also believe I am going crazy before I believed that I had some magic feeling within me telling me that god exists, the first to me actually has some basis, alot of people go crazy. There is no way to prove God's existance, or the existance of anything with supernatural qualities (the best we can do is debunk claims such as "I can do X")... so there's no reason to believe. For me, this leaves me in a position of disbelief, while of course there can also be no proof that God, the supernatural DOESN'T exist, for everything else in my reality I generally accept it as not existing before there is proof. I.e. "There are no blue giraffes."

If you truly believe this, then all emotions are non-existant, since you can't test them. You cannot fall in love, because it cannot be proven that you are in love. You can feel no grief when someone close to you dies, because your grief cannot be quantified. And so on.

In response to this, reference to causality would be invalid. It is absurd to think that every emotion has a cause in 'objective reality'. Love easily destroys this theory, as does grief - both can become much stronger than whatever power their 'cause' bestows upon them.

But if you have never fallen deeply in love with someone, or experienced deep grief to the point of despising life, then I understand.

No, science cannot test vague references to things that have no evidence of even existing.

*sigh* For hundreds of years people believed in the soul. Then science comes along and cannot find it, so we give up on the notion.

If you are interested, I can recommend you a book or two by a psychologist (so you'll understand the scientific language ) that would most likely make you think twice about believing in only what science can prove. Also remember that some of the greatest scientific minds have been mystics (Einstein, Jung, etc).

Haha I agree. I've asked it many times, what 'meaning' do these people get in their lives that they always go on about? From what I see theists create the same sort of meaning in their lives generally as I do in mine.

The depth of it is lost in explanations. Beyond this I won't argue about it.

 

[gerhard]

recommend me the books.

 

[BlackDragon]

so black dragon..
you believe that this whole life, every life that has every existed, has existed due to complete chance and despite everything ever done, it all amounts to nothing?
so, u can live ur life in happiness, but it wont mean anything in the end. everything is meaningless.
so ur telling me.. things like 9/11 happened for no reason at all, everything is in vain for in the end, we have no purpose in existence. but if u do believe we have no purpose in existence, why do we exist at all? why isnt there nothing instead?

so your arguing that if we had no purpose we should exist. and..you question the fact that if we weren't created by a god the chance of us existing would be so small its not funny. my rebuttle for part two: roll a die 100 times for me. what are the chances of rolling all those numbers, in a row, in that order? (1/6)^100. DO YOU REALISE HOW TINY THAT PROBABILITY IS? BUT YOU JUST DID IT. everything in the universe has a tiny chance of happening. everything. so you can't argue that because it is unlikely that it couldn't happen. for instance (again), roll a dice 1 million times. what were the chances of that sequnce happening? SMALL. VERY VERY SMALL. but you just did it.

moving on. the arguement that if we exist we must have purpose doesn't make any sense. i mean, you gave the example of 9/11. of course it is in vain you fool! just because its sad, or a person does something good doesn't mean it means anything. there isn't nothing instead because an event happened to make us exist. to make life exist, and as organisms we react to the world around us and fight for survival. we live to live. but we try to make meaning out of everything we do. you seem to argue that because there have been so many people throughout history, we must have purpose. but we don't, we just live to live - live to reproduce so our species can survive. but because we are slightly more intelligent than many other beings, we have to try and rationalise our lives and have tot try to give them meaning. in the end there is death. that is all. you can't just say, because its sad it must have meaning, because its good it must have meaning. those events do have meaning in the world and societies we have created for ourselves. but it means nothing, because in the end is nothing. we are nothing. just a bunch of matter reacting to the stimulants around us.

 

[gerhard]

a million to one chances happen nine times out of ten

 

[phatic]

recommend me the books.

The Politics of Experience and The Divided Self by R.D. Laing. The former is more appropriate, as the latter is actually a study of schizophrenia, though still relevant. Both can be found at the Stanton library in North Sydney.

In response to BlackDragon's post. Our ultimate death does not make our lives meaningless; in fact it can be the strongest motivation for us to find meaning in our lives. Yes, you are right, we do create our own meanings, but this also isn't necessarily a sad symptom of our rational minds. Even if it is, perhaps in our wretched state this is the only way we can approach the loftier movements of the spirit, which eternally justifies our misguided efforts.

 

[BlackDragon]

The Politics of Experience and The Divided Self by R.D. Laing. The former is more appropriate, as the latter is actually a study of schizophrenia, though still relevant. Both can be found at the Stanton library in North Sydney.

In response to BlackDragon's post. Our ultimate death does not make our lives meaningless; in fact it can be the strongest motivation for us to find meaning in our lives. Yes, you are right, we do create our own meanings, but this also isn't necessarily a sad symptom of our rational minds. Even if it is, perhaps in our wretched state this is the only way we can approach the loftier movements of the spirit, which eternally justifies our misguided efforts.

Yeah, so because life doesn't matter, make your own meaning and find happiness.

 

[littlewing69]

If you truly believe this, then all emotions are non-existant, since you can't test them. You cannot fall in love, because it cannot be proven that you are in love. You can feel no grief when someone close to you dies, because your grief cannot be quantified. And so on.

In response to this, reference to causality would be invalid. It is absurd to think that every emotion has a cause in 'objective reality'. Love easily destroys this theory, as does grief - both can become much stronger than whatever power their 'cause' bestows upon them.

Emotions are chemicals in the brain. They exist, we can "test" them.

 

[crazyhomo]

If you truly believe this, then all emotions are non-existant, since you can't test them. You cannot fall in love, because it cannot be proven that you are in love. You can feel no grief when someone close to you dies, because your grief cannot be quantified. And so on.

This is just wrong. There are many ways which psychologists quantify emotions, and these methods are being updated and refined all the time. Look up a few tests like the PANAS, HADS and DASS (to mention a few which I had to write an essay on last week).

 

[The Logical One]

If it cannot be tested then there's no reason to believe it.

I don't think you want to say that, because it eliminates the potential to create theory for which science can elaborate on.

I would also believe I am going crazy before I believed that I had some magic feeling within me telling me that god exists, the first to me actually has some basis, alot of people go crazy.

I agree to having blind faith as being quite insane. Believing anything which someone fed you as a child to be true is insanity. But, if I questioned the universe properly. Learnt of every religion in every form. eg(Christianity, Catholicism, Born Again, Roman Catholic, Evangelists, Taoism, Buddhism (Chi, Zen, and the others), Hinduism, Jeudaism, Islam (Aluheh, Chia, Sunni), Paganism. Learnt of every theory and implication of the theory and modeled theories myself. Would believing in religion, and faith still be Insanity? Even if I was able to prove (atleast to myself) that the universe was created, and relating back to religion?

There is no way to prove God's existance, or the existance of anything with supernatural qualities (the best we can do is debunk claims such as "I can do X")... so there's no reason to believe. For me, this leaves me in a position of disbelief, while of course there can also be no proof that God, the supernatural DOESN'T exist, for everything else in my reality I generally accept it as not existing before there is proof. I.e. "There are no blue giraffes."

There is no way to prove that alien life exists. There is no way to prove that there have been ancient civilisations. There is no way to prove that we evolved from a common homonoid species as apes did.

Yet, surprisingly. I believe most of that to be quite true. Proof, isn't everything otherwise you would have no way to even believe I exist. I could be a computer, right?

No, science cannot test vague references to things that have no evidence of even existing

.
Some references are in quite detail. However, I agree to the difficulty of reading proverbs and false predictions. Science can test the accuracy of the claims.

Haha I agree. I've asked it many times, what 'meaning' do these people get in their lives that they always go on about? From what I see theists create the same sort of meaning in their lives generally as I do in mine.

Generally they do. I don't think that most theists and you have similar belief as to why they exist. They believe god put them here, and you believe you're the result of a natural process.

I believe, god (the creator) is the reason for the natural laws, which would have led to a natural creation.

Do you agree to that?

 

[dbmoodb]

before you flame me for saying this, I have not read through the over 200 + pages...

There is a simple answer to the question of whether god exists or not, the answer is another question: do we need to believe in a god like being ?
I would propose that religion, not including recent ones, were devised a long time ago and were a gate way to 'answers' for the society at the respective time. Having said that one should remember that religion have proposed concepts and ideas which are about incredibly complicated things. For example the jewish religion had put forward an explanation about what the universe was like before the big band and even beyond the point to which mathematics can trace the existence of the universe. It turns out that the jewish religions explanation is close to the scientific theories regarding the state of our universe prior to the big bang. Conincidence ? .. perhaps...however this example does not prove that a god exists, it only shows how religion can provide answers to questions within a 'spiritual framework'. I would suggest that religion is also about a way of life but without the notion of god the religion still remains its answers and suggestions as to the meaning of life, the universe and everything.
Do you need a god to believe in ?

 

[slickstar_01]

ofcourse god exists. but its the way that the human brain has come around to accept it. once the inner slef has understood the creator the mind would soon after foolow the hearts perceptions. i believe that islam is the only religion all other religions are jsut by standers...ofcourse u may think i am wrong but i no i am right coz that is how i and many other mulsims c it. God had created all these religons that we see today ( islam, christianilty, j Judaism, NOT hindu, bhudism nad the smaller religions that are seen in society) but over time these religions have died out, starting with judaism god knows how many years ago....it died out after how the jews treated god......soon after (not sure but about 100 yrs) prophet Isa (jesus) was sent down to earth. he preached his religion which was christianity at the time and was killed by the jews due to the reasons of how god had treated then of wat they did to god.

is Islam we belive that jesus isnt even dead, god had taken him back to the heavens just before he was killed (as the jews saw him get killed). and after that prophet muhammed (PBUH) was sent down to preach the lat religion of god. yes islam isnt that old of a religion but its the most peacful religion of them all. we belive in jesus and he will one day come back down to earth from the heaven to live the rest of his life that he was determined to live before he was killed by the jews.

God does exist..its those whome havnt god the knowledge to no he does. if half of u idiots that say that he doenst exist just open up ur Bible or even read a few versus of the Quran you would no he does exist. but its just that small thing that you ppl cannot do that makes u belive that he doesnt.

u do not need some scientific proof to justify that he doesnt. everything is created from a source . u cannot question that. i made a wooden chair today. where did the wood come from? the tree. where didd the tree come from.....GOD everything that you do or say or even try to achieve only comes from the will of god. he is out hthere....sitting beside you all. he didnt waste 6 days to crete the word for us to question of he exist... coz he does that one whome questions will suffer in hell.

think about wat i have said. i am not trying to preech nothing coz the way i c it there is only one god..we jsut pray to him differently.

SliCk Star

 

[Legham]

No need for all these long posts. Simple answer : No!

 

[phatic]

Bah. Am I the only one who thinks we are becoming excessively rational, even to the point of absurdity? Reasons for God's existence, quantified emotions which are merely 'chemicals in the brain', everything relying on evidence or else it doesn't exist, etc etc. It seems that if it came right down to it, most of you would worship science before God.

Does no-one feel the "grandeur of God" flowing through nature? Has no one ever reached a heightened state of awareness such as this...

To see a World in a grain of sand,
And a Heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour.

And yet, the most profound statement that comes to mind is this, from Jesus.

Lift the stone and you will find me; cleave the wood and I am there.

 

[dbmoodb]

Stop, pause, take a good look around- now count to 10. You are addressing an intelligent, cultured and well read audience so it is wrong of you to assume that religious texts have not been read by a great percentage of the people posting... All I can really say is that you are a fool , the jewish religion preceeded yours - so did this supposed 'god' of yours create it because it was pratical at the time ? Also your response basically says that the jewish religion had died away - which it has not, you acknowledge that a few religions were 'true' believers in a major 'god'.
I personally do not believe in god after having being taught about the jewish religion and read from the torah, upon which religions have been derived. I did not feel any 'god', while reading from the torah- it was just a lot of god is great because... god god god god god the allmighty ... god ... Having said that there are things which science cannot yet explain, for instance as i mediate i reach other states of conscience - why do i reach this state ? how does it affect my health ? ..., BUT (i hate postmodernism more than i like it..- so don't bash me for this) postmodernism's argument is against the 'grand narrative', I personally attribute the state of science to be a derivitive of language being a flawed and sole medium for human communication...

 

[gerhard]

why shouldnt people worship science? look at where it has got us.

of course they dont worship science is the sense of following dogma, just in the sense of enjoying the beauty of it.

personally i am very interested in mystical experiences and all that sort of stuff, but i am still strictly scientific and athiest. i really need to get some friends who want to do mushrooms. i also want to go do that stay at a buddhist temple for 5 days where you arent allowed to speak or communicate in any form, and ive always wanted to join a cult. and id like to go live with the amish for a week so.

 

[KFunk]

Does no-one feel the "grandeur of God" flowing through nature? Has no one ever reached a heightened state of awareness such as this...

To see a World in a grain of sand,
And a Heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour.

Beautiful quote, but why should the elation that a person can feel necessarily be the granduer of god. You can replace such a phrase with the beauty of nature, the awe-inspiring nature of the universe or the blissful harmony of a peaceful mind. I believe that transcendence can be reached in a number of different ways, be it through philosophy, art, meditation or simply revelling in one's own existence. Why should such moments suggest that what you experience is the presence of god? More importantly, should it not be possible for a person to have such experiences in the absence of god?

 

[littlewing69]

i believe that islam is the only religion all other religions are jsut by standers...ofcourse u may think i am wrong but i no i am right coz that is how i and many other mulsims c it.

Cool logic.

Bah. Am I the only one who thinks we are becoming excessively rational, even to the point of absurdity? Reasons for God's existence, quantified emotions which are merely 'chemicals in the brain', everything relying on evidence or else it doesn't exist, etc etc. It seems that if it came right down to it, most of you would worship science before God.

There is space for the rational and the irrational. I just want to avoid mixing the two. I'm a big postmodernist, and I'm really into the 'experience' of things like emotion rather than the 'objective truth', but I don't think we should deny that such things do in fact have real existence in physical form.

'Worshipping' anything has never made sense to me. IMO, anything which is worth worshipping wouldn't expect it of you.

Does no-one feel the "grandeur of God" flowing through nature? Has no one ever reached a heightened state of awareness such as this...

I do, but I freak out when people get the bible commentaries out and start writing essays about religious minutiae. Religious feelings I like, dogma I do not.

 

[The Logical One]

I do, but I freak out when people get the bible commentaries out and start writing essays about religious minutiae. Religious feelings I like, dogma I do not.

I don't think anyone is particularly fond of people who are religiously bound by dogmatic assertions by religious texts and leaders. However, how much in religion is challenged and then refuted because of dogmatic beliefs? I know it doesn't happen in Islam. It has happened quite a few times in other religions but then it's classified as faith.

An example is in Hinduism (can also be applied for buddhism). However absurd it may be to believe in things such as reincarnation to some it is a part of their faith. Can you contest that reincarnation occurs? Logically you can. However, it is easily proven that after you die perhaps one atom of your whole body (which could have the most significance as it was the first atom which is significantly yours) will inevitable wind up as a part of another organism or apart of nature. This means that in a sense reincarnation is true.

This example can be used in all other contexts even in an untruth a truth can be formed. However, when all beliefs are based on opinion which is the case in this argument then faith has a particular importance. If something is believed to be real more or less it becomes real and this is the case with reality which is the effect of dogmatic beliefs indoctrinated in religion.

I don't think anyone will ever be able to prove whether or not God exists without direct contact. It's much like the belief of alien life. I have no evidence that alien life exists, yet my logical calculations have led me to believe that it is inevitable that aliens exist. I may never need to see aliens to know that they exists, I will never need scientific evidence apart from that which I already know. The earth is not particularly unique and neither is our galaxy. Life is very common in our universe.

I belief that alien life exists without ever needing proof but only the conditions for which we exist. Substitute us with the universe and the aliens with god and you have a perfect analogy for the belief in God.

 

[T-mac01]

why shouldnt people worship science? look at where it has got us.

of course they dont worship science is the sense of following dogma, just in the sense of enjoying the beauty of it.

personally i am very interested in mystical experiences and all that sort of stuff, but i am still strictly scientific and athiest. i really need to get some friends who want to do mushrooms. i also want to go do that stay at a buddhist temple for 5 days where you arent allowed to speak or communicate in any form, and ive always wanted to join a cult. and id like to go live with the amish for a week so.

Has it ever occured to you that God created space and the boundary of science itself where we've been striving to come closer with absolutely no proportion to?

So if you don't think God exists is a bit like saying that science is frutile. Although, this is arguable in your case. Since you obviously think science is a natural phenomenon.

The last thing I just want to briefly bring out is the lack of information and source regarding why we're here. I'm going to collect some readings for people to look at later.

 

[littlewing69]

I belief that alien life exists without ever needing proof but only the conditions for which we exist. Substitute us with the universe and the aliens with god and you have a perfect analogy for the belief in God.

Except:

1.) You can't even come close to calculating odds on the existence of God vis a vis the Drake equation.

2.) I don't think anyone lives their lives differently based on the supposed existence of ET life.

3.) Belief in God or aliens is very different to subscribing to a certain UFO abduction conspiracy theory or religion. That sort of belief takes some serious mind-bleach to swallow, if one posseses a critical intelligence of any sort.