Does God exist? (2 Viewers)

[ogmzergrush]

A general observation (Repeated, for those who missed it the first time):

Clearly there is no God, as if there was such an entity it/he/she would strike you people down for CONTINUALLY SPELLING EXISTENCE INCORRECTLY. SIMILARLY, DEFINITELY DOES NOT CONTAIN THE LETTER 'A'. If I was God I'd make it rain for three years straight every single time I saw this sort of shit, and when it was done raining I'd drop rocks the size of cars through your house. Just to make sure nobody got away with it, I'd then bring back the dinosaurs to finish the job.

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[Lundy]

Perhaps because no one has yet come forward and said "Belief in God is unprovable - it is fundamentally the acceptance of a being whom no one can comprehend, understand, or know to exist". I guess the best conclusion that can come out of this thread is that a God may or may not exist, and that we have no way of knowing, proving, or discovering whether this is true or not.


I_F

That is why I'm an agnostic.

 

[Ilija]

A general observation (Repeated, for those who missed it the first time):

Clearly there is no God, as if there was such an entity it/he/she would strike you people down for CONTINUALLY SPELLING EXISTENCE INCORRECTLY. SIMILARLY, DEFINITELY DOES NOT CONTAIN THE LETTER 'A'. If I was God I'd make it rain for three years straight every single time I saw this sort of shit, and when it was done raining I'd drop rocks the size of cars through your house. Just to make sure nobody got away with it, I'd then bring back the dinosaurs to finish the job.

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Vote One ogmzergrush for God

 

[insert-username]

That is why I'm an agnostic.

That's why I'm one too, if one still searching for some path to walk down.


I_F

 

[Comrade nathan]

Well is that really agnosticism? Since your talking about your personall feelings not your outlook in life.

You are saying you don't have a clue or can't make a stand on what is true. So my quote in my signature applies here very well, basically your ignorance is your reason for being an agnostic.

Would you become a materialist following a bit more Study? Or become a theist reading a bit more of the bible.

 

[Lundy]

basically your ignorance is your reason for being an agnostic.

Yes. a (without) gnosis (knowledge)


We've had this discussion before.

 

[withoutaface]

I follow a materialist philosophy, but I do not completely reject the notion that there may be a higher being, hence agnosticism.

 

[insert-username]

Ignorance? Or purely a belief that I cannot know which one is true?


I_F

 

[Lundy]

"I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure - that is all that agnosticism means." -- Clarence Darrow

"I have observed that the world has suffered far less from ignorance than from pretensions to knowledge. It is not skeptics or explorers but fanatics and ideologues who menace decency and progress. No agnostic ever burned anyone at the stake or tortured a pagan, a heretic, or an unbeliever." -- Daniel J. Boorstin

"In conclusion, there is a marvelous anecdote from the occasion of (Bertrand) Russell's ninetieth birthday that best serves to summarize his attitude toward God and religion. A London lady sat next to him at this party, and over the soup she suggested to him that he was not only the world's most famous atheist but, by this time, very probably the world's oldest atheist. "What will you do, Bertie, if it turns out you're wrong?" she asked. "I mean, what if -- uh -- when the time comes, you should meet Him? What will you say?" Russell was delighted with the question. His bright, birdlike eyes grew even brighter as he contemplated this possible future dialogue, and then he pointed a finger upward and cried, "Why, I should say, 'God, you gave us insufficient evidence.'" -- Al Seckel

 

[transcendent]

"The bible is broken" - River Tam

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I believe in God, but through logic and proof, there is a possibility that God does not exist.

none of this claptrap where its "your destiny" etc. through LOGIC, religious arguments for the existance of God, they are more or less invalid.

This thread seems to be just a circular attack for religious types to stumble in, only to get slammed in the face for things they cannot prove, most of the time where their traditional evidence cannot be used (eg the bible) and where things like "you do not need to prove the existance of God if you believe" sounds like airy fairy crap; irrelevant to the argument proposed, and open to attack.

Yes, that's exactly what the thread is for. IMO it is to open the eyes of the theists to the fact that their belief is only as valid as any other super-natural belief (it is less plausable than a belief in aliens) and that for many of them their conception of God IS logically impossible... if they choose to give it two perfect attributes a conflict can arise.

when it comes to respect... i may agree with some of the points about whether to respect a belief of being abducted by aliens etc. Can I point out that these beliefs are aged centuries? it may not be good enough to start respecting these beliefs, one thing that moonlight didnt mention, besides the personal attack on someone's social, moral foundations etc, is that its become a "tradition", usually something that is passed down from family.

I do not have to respect the belief because it is illogical. I respect the person because I can understand that there are a myriad of reasons to want to believe in a God... As for it being a tradition or whatever... trust me that doesn't stop people for criticising alot of people's beliefs (see: racists, male chauvinists, every single possible position as every single possible position has been shaped foremostly by your parents...).

Yes its fine to challenge and criticise these "traditions", religion is after all a construct. But the mere challenge of a construct is a complicated enough. Its the same with a family experiencing a culture clash between the children and the parents. Its fine to challenge existing traditions, but to disrespect them is highly inappropriate, and participants would probably ignore any of the reasoning and logic involved. That's what this thread is trying to do right? Knock some sense into religious types?

How do you propose to engage in a debate with a theist without disrespecting them? Their religion is a part of their identity, we are attacking their religion, therefore we attack them. Surely we have to have good manners and be courteous, but you seem to be trying to stiffle debate simply by saying 'it is disrespectful'.

No religious type will come in and give you any proof that God exists. I believe in God and there is no proof of it. There is also no hard ground proof that God DEFINATLEY does not exist, although there is much to safely say God probably doesn't.

Then why believe in God if you believe all the answers point you towards an answer that he does not exist?

Logic aside, this thread wouldn't do very much to sway the spiritually based believers. You can tell most can't handle logic on its own. Most of them even embarrass me that they cannot see this thread is working on logical processes. When they do, they have nothing.

Actually I think you'd be quite surprised about what logic does to alot of commonly held misconceptions. That's why people's attitudes change so much when they go off to uni.

Ignorance? Or purely a belief that I cannot know which one is true?

But Agnosticism argues that there is NOTHING that we can know is true. I really do not see how people only apply it to God and not everything.

 

[AntiHyper]

What other thing is out there that can be discussed similarly to god?

Aliens per say exists, even if they're not intelligent, even if they're only bacterial in size.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Yes, that's exactly what the thread is for. IMO it is to open the eyes of the theists to the fact that their belief is only as valid as any other super-natural belief (it is less plausable than a belief in aliens) and that for many of them their conception of God IS logically impossible... if they choose to give it two perfect attributes a conflict can arise.

I've followed this thread a little... good work to continually trying to open the eyes of every religious type that walks into this thread. I'm not as patient, I admire that.

I do not have to respect the belief because it is illogical. I respect the person because I can understand that there are a myriad of reasons to want to believe in a God... As for it being a tradition or whatever... trust me that doesn't stop people for criticising alot of people's beliefs (see: racists, male chauvinists, every single possible position as every single possible position has been shaped foremostly by your parents...).

That's true. Although disrespect and attack have two different meanings to me personally. Most of your "attacks" are civil and logical.

Disrespect for belief and disrespect for the person holding the belief are different. Perhaps I didn't make it clear, I was merely extended on a remark when it comes to mannerisms.

As for tradition goes, that's true that it doesnt stop others. My parents are racist towards white people, simply by the way they've grown up, the treatment my parents and their parents have had over years, and perhaps, a bit of selective memory. I disrepect their belief, their racism, yet I cannot be disrepectful to them particularly ~ otherwise they won't listen. That's what I was trying to aim at.

How do you propose to engage in a debate with a theist without disrespecting them? Their religion is a part of their identity, we are attacking their religion, therefore we attack them. Surely we have to have good manners and be courteous, but you seem to be trying to stiffle debate simply by saying 'it is disrespectful'.

true, religion is part of someone's identity, but again disrespecting their belief and disrespecting THEM is a little different. It can be jointly linked though.

eg disrespecting belief because its ridiculous through reason and logic, rather than disrespecting them by saying "all those who believe in a God are fucking stupid". Yesss, I acknowledge its an extreme example. I'm not saying that this happened frequently in the thread or whatever, merely making a statement about it, since we brushed mannerisms.

Then why believe in God if you believe all the answers point you towards an answer that he does not exist?

You asked that personal question to me in particular so here tis:

I feel the need to believe in something far greater than this world. It is illogical, no proof supports it, but........ I occasionally like the idea that someone is watching over me. Maybe its a psychological thing, maybe its my parents disowning me that fuels my belief, just to keep me sane that someone's looking out for me through my entire life.

That being said, occasionally I forget about God entirely, and believe that I look out for myself, which also makes me feel good in my most confident of times, in which case, I can't be confident all the time. My personal reasonings on believing in a higher being are psychological and selective I suppose.

But remember that these are not pieces of proof that he exists, so there's really no reason to attack it in this thread. I know it sounds rather absurd, though.

Actually I think you'd be quite surprised about what logic does to alot of commonly held misconceptions. That's why people's attitudes change so much when they go off to uni.

Come to think of it, my perception changed halfway through highschool - logic and reasoning pulled me from organised religion that I had been brought up in at school etc. Postmodernism changed my life. But logically, God's existence for ME personally needs to exist for now. Future, dunno, not ruling it out. yay for me.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Disrespect for belief and disrespect for the person holding the belief are different. Perhaps I didn't make it clear, I was merely extended on a remark when it comes to mannerisms.

Oh of course we shouldn't be rude, but there does occur times where you have to make a point that the other person might feel uncomfortable with.

I feel the need to believe in something far greater than this world. It is illogical, no proof supports it, and although I find it difficult to identify I occasionally like the idea that someone is watching over me. Maybe its a psychological thing, maybe its my parents disowning me that fuels my belief, just to keep me sane that someone's looking out for me through my entire life.

That being said, occasionally I forget about God entirely, and believe that I look out for myself, which also makes me feel good in my most confident of times, in which case, I can't be confident all the time. My personal reasonings on believing in a higher being are psychological and selective I suppose.

But remember that these are not pieces of proof that he exists, so there's really no reason to attack it. I know it sounds rather absurd, though.

So you believe because you want to believe. While this is still a far more admirable admission than most theists, it still doesn't seem the best thing to do. I mean I want to believe in heaven, angels, the afterlife etc but that doesn't mean I believe in it... we have to base ourselves in the world of known fact. By saying that you believe in God because that's what you want, you miss out on the real search for answers... surely you want to discover the objective, real answer to all of lifes questions... or at least try to... so why cop out in a belief of God simply because it's what you want? You want many things in life, but what you settle for is the reality - Why the difference when it comes to the existance of God?

edit: By the way, here's a nice list from infidels.org of what atheists are trying to promote... I think some are quite particular in your case, and you really might want to think about how you want to live your life.

* There is more to moral behavior than mindlessly following rules.
* Be especially sceptical of positive claims.
* If you want your life to have some sort of meaning, it's up to you to find it.
* Search for what is true, even if it makes you uncomfortable.
* Make the most of your life, as it's probably the only one you'll have.
* It's no good relying on some external power to change you; you must change yourself.
* Just because something's popular doesn't mean it's good.
* If you must assume something, assume something easy to test.
* Don't believe things just because you want them to be true.

and finally (and most importantly):

* All beliefs should be open to question.

 

[Comrade nathan]

Lundy used agnosticism to describe herself because of not knowing enough to make a decision.

While others say agnosticism is not a personal thing, and means that we as humans can never know the exist of higher beings, or of the thing-in-itself (things we have no yet discovered).

Which can be confusing. Many people are claiming themselves agnostic becuase they have not put too much thought to it, while others call themselves agnostic and have actually done a lot of study.

 

[Generator]

Lundy used agnosticism to describe herself because of not knowing enough to make a decision.

While others say agnosticism is not a personal thing, and means that we as humans can never know the exist of higher beings, or of the thing-in-itself (things we have no yet discovered).

Which can be confusing. Many people are claiming themselves agnostic becuase they have not put too much thought to it, while others call themselves agnostic and have actually done a lot of study.

Just an idea, but you can study/think for some time only to state that you still do not know enough.

 

[HotShot]

So I'm taking it you don't believe in anything unseen? Then you wouldn't like the idea of muslim jinn. They are spirits I guess, but must more also. Created by god yes. All things living were. There are good and bad, and neutral jinn. Bad are called shaiyton. They work for the devil. You probably think that's bollucks. But hey I don't see how you could not believe in spirits. Then what about people who have seen things of that sort or felt them? Does that mean they're just crazy?

You got me wrong, you believe in things that are not real, but What is real will always be real. You cannont change something that is unreal into real and the same way you cannot change something real into unreal.

So maybe i do believes in things unseen, but i know that they are not real. so like if my friend says that he believes in jinn, i say good job mate, you keep believin and be scared. but personally i dont a give a shit- that his life and not mine!

'then what about people who have seen thigns of that sort or felt t hem?does...'
it means they dont understand their body, and nature of humans. Humans can hallucinate, weed is life.

You dont need god anymore, weed has all the answers. smoke weed live long and live happy.

rite back to topic
yes god does not exist, more and more the evidence makes sense. lets argue the other way, if god does exist:

would there be book for us learn the religion from -highly doubt it
would there be prophets converting non-believers - nope
there would be messages written in the clouds -yes
there would be voices from the clouds - yes
there would be rain made of beer - yes

but obviously there are no messages on clouds, and beer rain etc so obviously he doesnt exist.
Why would god send messengers, if he was so powerful and created us all and could destroy us in an instant? why is there book like a bible etc when god could simply recite and teach all of us at the same time.

Religion is like maths, science etc all created by man.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Maths... created by man? Interesting argument.

 

[withoutaface]

You got me wrong, you believe in things that are not real, but What is real will always be real. You cannont change something that is unreal into real and the same way you cannot change something real into unreal.

So maybe i do believes in things unseen, but i know that they are not real. so like if my friend says that he believes in jinn, i say good job mate, you keep believin and be scared. but personally i dont a give a shit- that his life and not mine!

'then what about people who have seen thigns of that sort or felt t hem?does...'
it means they dont understand their body, and nature of humans. Humans can hallucinate, weed is life.

You dont need god anymore, weed has all the answers. smoke weed live long and live happy.

rite back to topic
yes god does not exist, more and more the evidence makes sense. lets argue the other way, if god does exist:

would there be book for us learn the religion from -highly doubt it
would there be prophets converting non-believers - nope
there would be messages written in the clouds -yes
there would be voices from the clouds - yes
there would be rain made of beer - yes

but obviously there are no messages on clouds, and beer rain etc so obviously he doesnt exist.
Why would god send messengers, if he was so powerful and created us all and could destroy us in an instant? why is there book like a bible etc when god could simply recite and teach all of us at the same time.

Religion is like maths, science etc all created by man.

Maths is discovered by man, not created. This is shown by how several different cultures managed to develop mathematics up to various points, with all their results consistent with every other culture's mathematics.

 

[KFunk]

You got me wrong, you believe in things that are not real, but What is real will always be real. You cannont change something that is unreal into real and the same way you cannot change something real into unreal.

By unreal do you mean an idea that isn't realisable (since unreal ussually entails something which is not real as aposed to something can never be real)? There were times when people have knocked back certain technological ideas as being impossible or 'unreal' only for them to be developed some time later. Does something that was once real continue to be real if it ceases to exist? (i.e. if it is completely broken down, with atoms scattered apart etc). I'm just interested in what you define as 'real' 'cause I'm unsure about the 'real'-ness of your claims .