Does God exist? (15 Viewers)

[Enteebee]

everybody turns there is noone that doesnt some just go back

Why do some people turn there and others don't? What about their essence leads them to do so while others don't? Whatever it is, it is the product of God, he created it.

 

[wikiwiki]

yeah well hes not going to send them to hell if they never heard about him you have though so what are complaining about

In fact, that is exactly the decision of the early church fathers. Without payment for the original sin, it is impossible to ascend to heaven.

The only exclusion commonly made is for the Jews, who are to enter heaven in great numbers despite rejecting Christ.

 

[Kwayera]

you are judged on what you have heard if you never hear about God u will still go to heaven

Citation, please? Or is this just hopeful Christian rhetoric?

 

[ur_inner_child]

yeah well hes not going to send them to hell if they never heard about him you have though so what are complaining about

but you can apply this logic to atheists/agnostics

He knew they were going to reject all religious institutions because of their education, upbringing, events in their lives, possibly country etc, yet he let them exist only to punish them. He created an atheist, let the atheist wander around, and punishes them.

why is there a difference between the hindu believer and the atheist/agnostic?

It is much the same idea as a King who lets their people starve. He is astonished about the theft related crime rate, and then punishes the "thieves". Yet it was the King who created these thieves in the first place. I'm stealing this idea from "Ever After". You are punishing the people you created.

 

[ditto]

If 'God' is the Christian god from Bible, then why did he even create all those other religions like Hinduism anyway?

Just to send all those people to Hell? Yes and I don't understand the natural disasters which he started himself

 

[thepaperman]

ZOMG.. atheists!!

go back to your Lord Xenu and nuking volcanoes or whatever else it is you do.

 

[ur_inner_child]

A quote came to me (not a very related source, but it does the trick)

"If you suffer your people to be ill-educated, and their manners corrupted from infancy, and then punish them for those crimes to which their first education disposed them, what else is to be concluded but that you first make thieves and then punish them? "

 

[wikiwiki]

If 'God' is the Christian god from Bible, then why did he even create all those other religions like Hinduism anyway?

Just to send all those people to Hell? Yes and I don't understand the natural disasters which he started himself

He didn't. This silly Western idea that God does everything goes against the original Christian Church (Orthodox). The difference between Churches is that the West 'revolutionise' while the Orthodox Church is fundamentally unchanged from the period of Early Christianity.

Man is a flawed entity, a splitting of our human and divine natures that occured when Adam bit the apple. As a result, we are unable to participate in God, without becoming like Christ, who was perfectly, equally, and inseperably both human and divine.

Without Christianity, it is much harder to become what we originally were, holy.

If that didn't make sense, then welcome to the wonderful world of theology. I'm simplifying, it has better parts about why Jews look funny and why we should all be communists.

 

[Kwayera]

A quote came to me (not a very related source, but it does the trick)

"If you suffer your people to be ill-educated, and their manners corrupted from infancy, and then punish them for those crimes to which their first education disposed them, what else is to be concluded but that you first make thieves and then punish them? "

<3 Ever After

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Without Christianity, it is much harder to become what we originally were, holy.

It's especially difficult to become holy if the machinery that god supposedly invented doesn't work right while you're still an embryo and you come out all fucked up looking

 

[ditto]

wait, so even 'God' is not in control of the weather/natural disasters?

 

[Kwayera]

ok found one
if someone has never heard they will not be juged

"sin is not taken into account when there is no law" (Romans 5:13).

I would interpret that in context totally differently. That says that human law doesn't judge sin, and where God's law is absent, sin is not judged.

OR shit happens (lawlessness, like natural disasters) whether you've sinned or not.

 

[Slidey]

Man, you theists have some vivid imaginations when it comes to interpreting holy book passages.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Yeah I think we've demonstrated pretty well that once you have a set of beliefs that must be true it's easy to make up ad hoc explanations (especially when the beliefs are supernatural) to explain away any problems... at least in your own mind

 

[xeuyrawp]

Considering the loaded terms in that verse, I reckon it could be argued back and forth til the cows come home.

 

[xeuyrawp]

Yeah I think we've demonstrated pretty well that once you have a set of beliefs that must be true it's easy to make up ad hoc explanations (especially when the beliefs are supernatural) to explain away any problems... at least in your own mind

Easy way of getting out of arguing with theists.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

You need to distinguish between 'theists' and 'people who are up to date with the latest biblical scholarship'

 

[sam04u]

Easy way of getting out of arguing with theists.

That's why you don't argue with theists. You just provide them with links to read and let them come to their own conclusion.

I don't know many atheists who were "argued" out of theism. It just doesn't work that way. You can't convince someone of anything by arguing. I've won countless arguments. And I've lost countless arguments too.

But I'm not stupid enough to believe I've been convinced or I've convinced someone of something. I know that all you do by arguing is enforce your belief and the beliefs of others.

But would you dare do that? Would you dare to try and bypass the human mind by knowing this information? Would you from now on stop arguing and let people come to their own conclusions by personal reflection of selected material? Would you force them out of an oppurtunity of living in paradise for eternity to make you feel better?

 

[KFunk]

A hindu believer came to existence. God let this happen, as he gave him life. But he knew (via the fact that this hindu person grew up in a hindu household in a hindu country and thus had a hindu upbringing) HE KNEW he was going to be HINDU ALL ALONG. THEREFORE he is fated to go to hell.

I think part of the difficulty is that some theists want to allow god to 'know the unknowable'. A will which is properly free (i.e. undetermined) is by nature unpredictable. I'm not sure sure how one can claim to know the unknowable without embracing contradiction head on. I applaud anyone who takes this position, by the way - it takes gumption.

However, some might also claim that god exists outside of time and so our ordinary 'epistemic logic' doesn't apply. My reply to this is that 'existence out of time' is a fairly wishy-washy notion and I challenge a theist to make such a concept coherent (especially given that god is expected to affect change).

I think that belief in an afterlife renders this life totally meaningless. You don't live for the moments you are alive - you live for the moments after you're alive.

As an atheist this life is the only one I'll every have, so you goddamn bet I'll make the most of it.

Saint Augustine (funnily enough) : "It is only in the face of death than man's self is born."

 

[Slidey]

Sam's got a point: the more aggressively you argue something, the more the brain stops listening to reason. It's not a religious phenomenon, it's just a psychological defence mechanisms against forced change I guess.

Which is why generally I prefer to remain calm and keep to a "just the facts" mode. Of course I forget as often as I remember, and I would say a small proportion of my posts on forums have convinced somebody they might not be completely correct.