Does God exist? (9 Viewers)

[Enteebee]

Sam's got a point: the more aggressively you argue something, the more the brain stops listening to reason. It's not a religious phenomenon, it's just a psychological defence mechanisms against forced change I guess.

Which is why generally I prefer to remain calm and keep to a "just the facts" mode. Of course I forget as often as I remember, and I would say a small proportion of my posts on forums have convinced somebody they might not be completely correct.

I try to just provide as many different arguments against the same thing as possible to get the cogs in their brain working... People like to figure things out for themselves, but if you've given them the hints I think later on when they're considering it it'll pop back into their head again.

BTW, I think we can look at BradCube to see a huge change that can come about from reasoned debate... He was at least somewhat like *TRUE* when he first started posting.

 

[sam04u]

BTW, I think we can look at BradCube to see a huge change that can come about from reasoned debate... He was at least somewhat like *TRUE* when he first started posting.

Right, and you managed to enforce his beliefs to the point where he doesn't make logical fallacies and can continue to argue the same points. Has his opinion "actually" changed?

 

[Enteebee]

Right, and you managed to enforce his beliefs to the point where he doesn't make logical fallacies and can continue to argue the same points. Has his opinion "actually" changed?

He's no longer the sort of theist I have a big problem with, good enough for me. Tbh I don't think most people ever really believes so I don't think his opinion has ever changed, he's never really believed.

 

[sam04u]

He's no longer the sort of theist I have a big problem with, good enough for me. Tbh I don't think most people ever really believes so I don't think his opinion has ever changed, he's never really believed.

Believed what exactly?

(Just for the record creating doubt by saying something like. "Deep down we all know something else out there exists". Doesn't help change someones opinion on a topic. You sort of did that just now, but I don't know if that was your intention. All it does is encourage people to reaffirm their doubts. They'll go to sites/places which is most sympathetic to their opinion. Back to their comfort zone.)

 

[KFunk]

Right, and you managed to enforce his beliefs to the point where he doesn't make logical fallacies and can continue to argue the same points. Has his opinion "actually" changed?

With regards to free will, certainly. He engages well with rational debate and doesn't simply shy away.

 

[Enteebee]

Believed what exactly?

He doesn't believe when he dies he's going to go to heaven, he doesn't really believe there's a god watching over him 24/7 etc even the God he claims to believe in now is becoming something that I can actually imagine people believing in...

 

[Enteebee]

I think if you can't figure out Atheism for yourself then there's really no point to it.

Agreed. I don't believe in indoctrinated Atheism in any way or form, I think that's just another form of religion.

 

[sam04u]

He doesn't believe when he dies he's going to go to heaven, he doesn't really believe there's a god watching over him 24/7 etc even the God he claims to believe in now is becoming something that I can actually imagine people believing in...

You use the word imagine and believe. You can not imagine god, that's the problem. You either believe completely, you know, or you don't believe.

 

[Enteebee]

You use the word imagine and believe. You can not imagine god, that's the problem. You either believe completely, you know, or you don't believe.

Well I believe people could believe in some conceptions of God... others I don't believe (most) people could truly believe in. I don't think they believe, it's not even that they don't "know", it's that they don't believe, they just wish it were true really badly.

 

[sam04u]

... they just wish it were true really badly

I know the type. I mean there are certain beliefs that preach out of fear, ie; "you will perish if you do not believe in x and y" I have zero respect for those beliefs.

 

[Enteebee]

I know the type. I mean there are certain beliefs that preach out of fear, ie; "you will perish if you do not believe in x and y" I have zero respect for those beliefs.

Well, I don't think people really believe in the afterlife :/

 

[pinkyforce7]

Well I believe people could believe in some conceptions of God... others I don't believe (most) people could truly believe in. I don't think they believe, it's not even that they don't "know", it's that they don't believe, they just wish it were true really badly.

that may be a slightly biased point of view. that veiw being from an atheist point of veiw. have u experienced what it is like to believe in some form of God, or know that one exists? i think many people truley do believe or seem to know for themselves if God is true or not. regardless of whether God is actually reality or fiction.

 

[sam04u]

Well, I don't think people really believe in the afterlife :/

Well I can speak for myself. I do.

 

[Enteebee]

What makes you think I don't really believe that? I have lots of reasons as to why I believe people don't really believe...

have u experienced what it is like to believe in some form of God, or know that one exists?

I believed in God until I was 12 and by believe I guess I mean, I'd never really properly thought about it.

i think many people truley do believe or seem to know for themselves if God is true or not.

I think most religions are almost entirely focused on the afterlife (the moral teachings might change, but that fact never will) because that's what people really want and crave... it's without a doubt the most desired thing in the history of man kind.

Now though, when they go to funerals, they all seem as upset as me... I think it's because they don't really believe. If I really believed I can imagine myself quite happy at the funerals of my fellow christians.

I mean, Christians even support the idea that they don't really believe, they say you need 'faith', now this isn't belief... this is hope.

 

[Slidey]

I try to just provide as many different arguments against the same thing as possible to get the cogs in their brain working... People like to figure things out for themselves, but if you've given them the hints I think later on when they're considering it it'll pop back into their head again.

BTW, I think we can look at BradCube to see a huge change that can come about from reasoned debate... He was at least somewhat like *TRUE* when he first started posting.

Yep. I know I got a bit worked up at BradCube, but I have a fair bit of respect for the man. I never intended to 'make' him atheist, just to encourage the idea that science is correct.

As far as God goes, I don't particularly care either way as long as belief in him doesn't lead to disbelief in science. In the end I'm not sure there's any evidence to distinguish between the existence and non-existence of a God that created the universe which obeys the laws of science, and subsequently the existence of a non-judgemental afterlife (i.e. heaven, but not hell).

 

[BradCube]

I feel flattered and both humbled by all of the above comments.

Certainly my beliefs have changed dramatically since when I first started following this thread! In regards to Christianity specifically, I am honestly on the brink of giving it up. I can only hope and pray that if God really does want me to continue in Christianity, that He reveal something dramatic as soon as possible. I suppose it is ironic then that it is this very concept which I find to be the stumbling block in my faith. For if God does not provide or reveal an answer, am I truly the one responsible for my inability to hold Christianity? Surely, it should be God who is held responsible for not giving me enough information or lack of intellect to comprehend?

Aside from free will (or lack thereof), I found the debates in this thread have strengthened or at least shown me how Christianity can be maintained reasonably. Certainly for every uninformed believer who posts in this thread, there is an uninformed non-believer that has just as many flaws in their reasoning processes and conclusions.

As an aside, I'm currently wondering whether it is even possible for a God to create a being with true free will. How would a God go about this, and how do we know that this is not what the Christian God has already done.

Thought I should also clarify that, assuming my original struggles with free will still hold, this does not mean God does not exist. It only means that the Christian God does not exist, or is radically different to the stereotypical view of him. It just seemed that some were making the jump from no free will = no God.

 

[Stevo.]

Please don't give up your faith on the whim. Be sure and well informed of your choice. It's not a matter of believing or not, just as long as you believe free of the silly ignorances that plague most believers. That's what should matter. Knowledge above all else.

 

[BradCube]

Agreed. To be sure, I would never give such a big thing up on a whim, and that is why I would still say that I am a Christian. Nevertheless, it is quite a stumbling block and one that I desperatley hope to solve.

 

[Enteebee]

Hope you don't think I was implying you're almost an atheist Brad, just that IMO you've gone from more of a fundamentalist 'simple' christian towards a theist with a more sophisticated conception of God that I can probably even appreciate (though I disagree with).

 

[sam04u]

I can only hope and pray that if God really does want me to continue in Christianity, that He reveal something dramatic as soon as possible.

In my own experiences God only reveals revelations unto those who already believe. It sounds crazy right? Screaming "prove you exist" at the most powerful being in the universe. You'll get a biological response alright. Probably a cold shiver, but nothing more.

I'm either insane or there is a God out there. I came to that conclusion after my own experiences with God. I've experienced God, it was as physical as it was spiritual, and just recalling on those memories brings back a part of the experience.

For if God does not provide or reveal an answer, am I truly the one responsible for my inability to hold Christianity?

I think I know the answer to your predicament. What you're asking is for God to reveal an answer, but that's just it. God is the answer.

As an aside, I'm currently wondering whether it is even possible for a God to create a being with true free will. How would a God go about this, and how do we know that this is not what the Christian God has already done.

After spending much time thinking, I've seen that not all my actions have been based on either reason or impulse. Sometimes it's something else, something I can't explain. I consider that free will. It's very marginal, but it's what counts.

For instance have you ever walked past something that smelt pleasant and for no reason whatsoever went back to smell it? Have you ever done anything for the sake of it? Have you ever walked passed a homeless person and for no reason whatsoever, even though you barely noticed them you went back give them some money?

We have free will.

Why is it when you've done something good you want people to know? You don't particularly want them to think you're a good person. You don't particularly want to show you're a better person than them. You don't think they're judging you. But then why do you want them to know?

Because whether we know it or not. That's our free will. That's our way of acknowledging you could have not done the right thing, yet you did and rightfully you want credit for it. And you will get credit for it. On judgement day.