Does God exist? (13 Viewers)

[Iron]

We're different

...

 

[wuddie]

(God)either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is neither able nor willing; or He is both willing and able. In another words, God is either less than wholly powerful, or less than wholly good, or less than both. If he is both wholly powerful and good, from what source then are evils? Or why does He not remove them.

if god's power is limitless, can he toast a sandwich so hot that even he can't eat? if he can, then how can he eat it? if not, then god's power has limits.

that's my two cents.

 

[Enteebee]

Kwayera: Do you think an animal life is = a human life?

 

[withoutaface]

that's my two cents.

Limitless power bounded by logical consistency...

 

[r0b]

T.S Eliot has resolved the matter, at least for Christians. This is an extract from 'Little Gidding' :

[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']If you came this way, (context = Monastery)
Taking any route, starting from anywhere,
At any time or at any season,
It would always be the same: you would have to put off
Sense and notion. You are not here to verify,
Instruct yourself, or inform curiosity
Or carry report. You are here to kneel
Where prayer has been valid. And prayer is more
Than an order of words, the conscious occupation
Of the praying mind, or the sound of the voice praying.[/FONT]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'][/FONT]

 

[r0b]

err... sorry about the font

 

[Captain Gh3y]

If you think we're not animals you have to decide how many generations (or at least how many subspecies of hominids) ago we stopped being animals and explain what the big difference was from one subspecies to the next

EDIT: In other words you would have to find compelling evidence for why humans should be classified as part of a whole new kingdom outside the animals, and then convince everyone else you were right. Until you can do that, we're animals.

 

[Iron]

I just found it interesting that Kwayera was willing to reject any positive differences, but was eager to affirm negative ones (Animals Love too, so we're not uniquely good, but humans Hate much more, so we're bad)
Enough of this veiled self-loathing!

 

[Kwayera]

Kwayera: Do you think an animal life is = a human life?

That's actually a very loaded question for me. I have recently been struggling with this idea, as while I certainly place great import in my own species, I also don't think we have the right to THINK we are any more important than any other animal on the planet.

In every ecosystem there are predators and prey. We're lucky in that we're predators (in fact it's probably unlikely that a vegetarian species could ever reach our level of intelligence, given the protein deficiencies inherent in the diets of vegetarian animals), and I have no shame in eating animal meat.

However, the idea that humans have "dominion" over any (and every) other species is, to me, a dangerous one, as it shrugs off the responsibility we have (and the guilt we should feel) in removing other individual animals, and further entire species, off the face of the planet. Someone who thinks we are, essentially, Gods among other animals would have no qualms in driving another species to extinction, and I absolutely and categorically deny we have this right.

In no balanced ecosystem does a predator ever wipe out its prey - it's counterproductive, and something we apparently haven't learned. So no, I don't think a human life = another animal's life, nor do I think it's lesser or greater. To be honest, I don't think I'll ever know.

But what I do know is that the human SPECIES should necessarily be equal to that of another animal species. By what right to we place ourselves above?

 

[Kwayera]

I just found it interesting that Kwayera was willing to reject any positive differences, but was eager to affirm negative ones (Animals Love too, so we're not uniquely good, but humans Hate much more, so we're bad)
Enough of this veiled self-loathing!

It's not self-loathing. We have, as has been said, been to the moon; I could never hate my species for that.

It's more frustration - we're so intelligent, and we're squandering our planet for no good reason.

 

[Iron]

By what right to we place ourselves above?

Our INTELLIGENCE. We clearly ARE the dominant species. With this comes no responsibility at all. To say that it does is to import higher, external, ideals upon ourselves which you claim dont exist.
Your cold, animal logic can justify protecting other species from extinction, purely for the utility those species may have for us (food, clothing, medicine whatever) - but nothing else.

I mean, I have no doubt that a raptor wouldnt spill my guts and entreaty the pack to feast on my limbs while she works the abdomen in a SECOND given the chance.
Clever girl!
Does she think herself better? It's not the issue. My corpse has utility.

 

[Enteebee]

That's actually a very loaded question for me. I have recently been struggling with this idea, as while I certainly place great import in my own species, I also don't think we have the right to THINK we are any more important than any other animal on the planet.

In every ecosystem there are predators and prey. We're lucky in that we're predators (in fact it's probably unlikely that a vegetarian species could ever reach our level of intelligence, given the protein deficiencies inherent in the diets of vegetarian animals), and I have no shame in eating animal meat.

However, the idea that humans have "dominion" over any (and every) other species is, to me, a dangerous one, as it shrugs off the responsibility we have (and the guilt we should feel) in removing other individual animals, and further entire species, off the face of the planet. Someone who thinks we are, essentially, Gods among other animals would have no qualms in driving another species to extinction, and I absolutely and categorically deny we have this right.

In no balanced ecosystem does a predator ever wipe out its prey - it's counterproductive, and something we apparently haven't learned. So no, I don't think a human life = another animal's life, nor do I think it's lesser or greater. To be honest, I don't think I'll ever know.

But what I do know is that the human SPECIES should necessarily be equal to that of another animal species. By what right to we place ourselves above?

Are animals more important than plants? Is life more important than non-life? However you make a judgement call it's going to be artificial, there is no absolute morality to guide us around here. I would argue that since you obviously do value human life over non-human, you do think we're better... for the most part I'm not interested in arguing against a philosophy that people can't even hold true for themselves. Personally I don't see why you can't just value human life as 'greater' than animal life while still valuing animal life as not something we should just throw away at a whim.

By what right are we greater? The right of might... the only real right.

 

[Kwayera]

Our INTELLIGENCE. We clearly ARE the dominant species. With this comes no responsibility at all. To say that it does is to import higher, external, ideals upon ourselves which you claim dont exist.
Your cold, animal logic can justify protecting other species from extinction, purely for the utility those species may have for us (food, clothing, medicine whatever) - but nothing else.

Well, yes, our intelligence is what distinguishes us. We're not particularly strong, or enduring. Our intelligence gave us fire and the wheel and the moon and everything that makes us 'great', and to invoke a cliche, "with great power comes great responsibility." What right, really, do we have to raze this planet given that we are indeed just animals? The power our intelligence gives us is a choice, to choose what is right and what is not.

By what right did we have to shoot every last Passenger Pigeon? Or fish out the Newfoundland Cod such that they are below critical mass to recover?

Does the mere fact we made it to the moon give us the right to pass such judgements?

I mean, I have no doubt that a raptor wouldnt spill my guts and entreaty the pack to feast on my limbs while she works the abdomen in a SECOND given the chance.
Clever girl!
Does she think herself better? It's not the issue. My corpse has utility.

What? Appreciation of Jurassic Park references aside - what?

 

[Stevo.]

I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.

 

[Kwayera]

I would argue that since you obviously do value human life over non-human, you do think we're better...

But that's the thing, Chadd - I don't think we're better. Just because I have loyalty to my species it doesn't mean I think we're better - just as you can have loyalty to a country without thinking it's better than any other and should RULE over any other.

 

[Kwayera]

I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.

It both amuses and saddens me how much I agree with this.

And why do we do it? Because we think we're better. Shame on all of us.

 

[Iron]

Bah!
Your talk of rights implies a higher authority that we are accountable to. Our intelligence is not an insight into right and wrong, good and bad. These are just tools that allow us to quickly judge threats/opportunities; language allows us to communicate them.
If we are animals, if there is no greater meaning attached to being human as there is to being an..elephant, then all our efforts and struggles in life are for domination and control - for MIGHT to quote the delightfully Nietzschian NTBright.
If we squander, we squander -So? we're animals. If we cause extinctions, so? as long as they werent useful to us, like cows and sheep.
We will only stop this when we are threatened as a species.

 

[Stevo.]

I used to care, back when I was a communist.

The way we live is unsustainable and we will wipe ourselves out, it is inevitable.

 

[pinkyforce7]

I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.

lol MATRIX!!!!

EDIT: seemingly true though

 

[Enteebee]

But that's the thing, Chadd - I don't think we're better. Just because I have loyalty to my species it doesn't mean I think we're better - just as you can have loyalty to a country without thinking it's better than any other and should RULE over any other.

I think you're going to have to elaborate on this loyalty concept, I mean the best differentiation that I can think of would be that you feel you have a duty to value humans over others is imposed on you by virtue of being human, but that doesn't change the fact that you DO value them higher.

Also, just because you think you're better than someone else doesn't mean you think you should rule over them.

It both amuses and saddens me how much I agree with this.

And why do we do it? Because we think we're better. Shame on all of us.

It saddens me that someone studying the natural sciences (in particular marine sciences) isn't aware of other species that "move to an area and multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way they can survive is to spread to another area".