Does God exist? (1 Viewer)

[impervious182]

So everything was created, but we draw the line at God...nice logic.

Why can't we draw the line at the universe? And say nothing created the universe?

Well one could do that... but God having power which is beyond our understanding is, to me, more of a cause of creation; than nothing suddenly turning into something.

To me it is easier to beleive in a God who transcends time and space, and created it. Than to believe that absolutely nothing created something, for no reason at all.

 

[Lukybear]

You should know what a miracle is. I'd say it could be defined as any event where the only possible explanation is devine intervention. It's absolutely essential to test it through scientific means- if it can't stand up to a examination by natural science, it's not a miracle.

If it's a genuine miracle, it should be easily testable and provable.

I'm not trying to disprove god. I'm just making the basic point that should be obvious to anyone over 5 that miracles are bullshit and don't exist.

From your point of prespective it seems that you would think science is against miracles. I strongly disagree with this.

Why cant miracles consistitude events where science can explain the result, but would occur in the extremest of circumstances. IE conincedences?

 

[Graney]

Yes but again, what would constitute for proof? Some scientific evidence no doubt. What more proof can one give than a testimony? If miracles are defined as fitting outside the realms of science, then of course they can't be proven.

If something violated the natural laws of physics, chemistry, biology, it would be proof. That's exactly what miracles claim to do. And if it genuinely happened, it would be able to be tested. But it doesn't

If they fit within the realms of science, people claim that they're not miracles.

Because they're not.

Are they thousands of sightings of the same UFO on the same day?

Yes, there have been.

 

[nikolas]

Which again links back to God being beyond our understanding. It's an explanation as to how the world was created.

Which again links back to Russell's teapot.

To create something from nothing is in itself beyond human understanding. It does not fit within the realms of science or human explanation; neither does the idea of there being a beginning, though we know there has to be, because time moves forward not backwards.

You have not refuted my points about the 1st causation argument. Your just restating your original argument.

 

[Graney]

From your point of prespective it seems that you would think science is against miracles. I strongly disagree with this.

Why cant miracles consistitude events where science can explain the result, but would occur in the extremest of circumstances. IE conincedences?

That doesn't make any sense.

So a normal, everyday event, within the confines of normal physical laws, is now a miracle? lol is all I can say.

 

[Lukybear]

No, this plain wrong, re-read what you learned about Big bang.

Do you doubt the big bang? Do you doubt the countless of scientific theories weaven up to try and explain the big bang?? ie M-Theory(String Theory)? WHy did that singularity expanded into the universe today?

These are infutible evidence that the scientific community out there belives that there was a period before the big bang, that transcends the unvierse.

 

[impervious182]

The variety of accounts of bigfoot and the way in which they corroborate what the other's say, is irrefutable evidence in my opinion.


You should know what a miracle is. I'd say it could be defined as any event where the only possible explanation is devine intervention. It's absolutely essential to test it through scientific means- if it can't stand up to a examination by natural science, it's not a miracle.

The sightings themselves do not corroborate each other at all. They have been made all over the world, were not made in the same time frame and do not even describe a bigfoot which looks the same. There are two many differences in the sightings.

In the case of Jesus however, all of the books say roughly the same thing. And there are many more first-hand-accounts of Jesus then there are sightings of big-foot and again, the former corroborate eachother, whereas the latter do not.

If it's a genuine miracle, it should be easily testable and provable.

How? What type of miracle would this be then? What if I were to say, that one miracle of God is that no miracle can be proven...

 

[nikolas]

Erm... but that's my point. Testimony is the only evidence we have and could possibly have. So you can either choose to believe nothing, or take a few thousands people's first-hand accounts.

You seem to think Testimony is adequate proof.

 

[Lukybear]

That doesn't make any sense.

So a normal, everyday event, within the confines of normal physical laws, is now a miracle? lol is all I can say.

Let me put it in an example? Say a cancer patient is infected by a mysterious virus that suddenly cures the patient's problem. This virus was unknown to man but is explained away by science. Does that consitute miracles?

 

[impervious182]

If something violated the natural laws of physics, chemistry, biology, it would be proof. That's exactly what miracles claim to do. And if it genuinely happened, it would be able to be tested. But it doesn't

So then, by this definition. Anything that cannot yet be explained by science is a miracle.

So why the temperature is cooling when global warming is occuring is an act of God... hahaha.

 

[impervious182]

You seem to think Testimony is adequate proof.

It's adequate for me. I see no reason not to believe any of these testimonies. Certainly historical evidence suggests that many of the events described did take place... so why not?

 

[nikolas]

Do you doubt the big bang? Do you doubt the countless of scientific theories weaven up to try and explain the big bang?? ie M-Theory(String Theory)? WHy did that singularity expanded into the universe today?

These are infutible evidence that the scientific community out there belives that there was a period before the big bang, that transcends the unvierse.

I dont doubt the big bang, you just seem to horribly misunderstand Big bang.

Where are your sources, i think you're just making this up as you go tbh.

Asking what was before the Big Bang is like asking what is north of the north pole.

 

[Lukybear]

It's adequate for me. I see no reason not to believe any of these testimonies. Certainly historical evidence suggests that many of the events described did take place... so why not?

That is true, but the belief of the bible came to me, after i belived in Christ. It is irrational, but thats the power of God.

 

[Graney]

Let me put it in an example? Say a cancer patient is infected by a mysterious virus that suddenly cures the patient's problem. This virus was unknown to man but is explained away by science. Does that consitute miracles?

No, of course not.

Do you guys actually know what a miracle is? It requires clear, divine intervention.

The above example is fucking stupid because it doesn't require devine intervention.

So then, by this definition. Anything that cannot yet be explained by science is a miracle.

So why the temperature is cooling when global warming is occuring is an act of God... hahaha.

No you sped.

Complex systems we don't yet understand =/= violation of natural laws.

 

[moll.]

There is some truth to what you say moll. Indeed God is all powerfull, and we are merely insignificant beings upon this puny earth. The truth is, if i was God, i wouldnt bother with humans, but then again i am not, and neither are you.

We cannot use human behaviour to characterise God, because simply put, God is beyond human comprehension.

My answer, and the answer that i have always been taught in Church is that God bothered with us, because we are his creation. His benevolance, and love which is characterised in Grace is what lift His hand in sending salvation.

And yet, in the Hebrew Bible Jahveh is shown to be a vengeful, moody, fickle, jealous, genocidal and merciless deity, all of which are human qualities. So does he or doesn't he have human characteristics?
Also, it can be proven statistically that there is a very good chance that life exists somewhere else in the universe, simply due to the sheer amount of floating debris and matter that exists which is capable of supporting life. Has your God extended the same Covenant to them?
And what about the animals? It has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that we evolved from them, and yet for some reason we're better than they are?

This is quite contradictor against the belief in God no? Surely if our emotional need of being elevated above our peers is the cause of religion, (by no way am i denying this need) then why do people advocate religion? If every1 is a Christian then how are we special?

Perhaps arrogance is a part of humanity, but is surely isnt the basis of Christianity.

But it is arrogant. The idea that a God which exists outside of time and space and knows no limit upon his powers would bother spending time attending to your petty (generalising humanity, not you specifically) emotional and physical needs is the epitome of arrogance. Such a belief will invoke the feeling that you are special and important enough for said deity to pay attention to you, despite the limitless expanse of his power and responsibilities. If that's not arrogance, tell me what is.

 

[nikolas]

It's adequate for me. I see no reason not to believe any of these testimonies. Certainly historical evidence suggests that many of the events described did take place... so why not?

I rest my case, you are naive.

Funny how you doubt Global warming (not necessarily saying its true)due to lack of evidence. Yet on the topic of God, you accept some randoms testimony+Argumentum ad populoum and conclude there is a God.

 

[Lukybear]

I dont doubt the big bang, you just seem to horribly misunderstand Big bang.

Where are your sources, i think you're just making this up as you go tbh.

Asking what was before the Big Bang is like asking what is north of the north pole.

Its common knowledge... If you google it, you would find tons of scientific research on WHY the big bang occured. IE M-THeory...

 

[Lukybear]

No, of course not.

Do you guys actually know what a miracle is? It requires clear, divine intervention.

The above example is fucking stupid because it doesn't require devine intervention.

No you sped.

Complex systems we don't yet understand =/= violation of natural laws.

THat is funny, how do you define divine intevention? Matter appearing out of thin air? Then science is just going to hypothesis some theory which will render this even not divine?

The truth is, you'll never belive miracles even if its out there.

 

[nikolas]

Its common knowledge... If you google it, you would find tons of scientific research on WHY the big bang occured. IE M-THeory...

umm m-theory deals with particles at the fundamental levels...

 

[Lukybear]

And yet, in the Hebrew Bible Jahveh is shown to be a vengeful, moody, fickle, jealous, genocidal and merciless deity, all of which are human qualities. So does he or doesn't he have human characteristics?
Also, it can be proven statistically that there is a very good chance that life exists somewhere else in the universe, simply due to the sheer amount of floating debris and matter that exists which is capable of supporting life. Has your God extended the same Covenant to them?
And what about the animals? It has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that we evolved from them, and yet for some reason we're better than they are?

His expression of these characterisitcs ie, anger are rightous. And belive it or not there is something called rightous anger. Our anger on the other hand is not righous.

Such questions i cannot answer, for He chose not to reveal to us the full extent of His works. However you must know that everything changed when Christ died for the world and took upon the burden of our sins.

But it is arrogant. The idea that a God which exists outside of time and space and knows no limit upon his powers would bother spending time attending to your petty (generalising humanity, not you specifically) emotional and physical needs is the epitome of arrogance. Such a belief will invoke the feeling that you are special and important enough for said deity to pay attention to you, despite the limitless expanse of his power and responsibilities. If that's not arrogance, tell me what is.

Again, you are viewing things from the prespective of a human. You write as if for an omnipotent being to love us, and help us in life is a CHORE. Rather for an omnipotent being it is not.

Also it is only ARROGANCE if you belive, that GOD SERVE YOU. It is not however, when the belif is that you worship God, obey God...