Does God exist? (2 Viewers)

[Iron]

So you actually believe, that given your in a minority even here, that most of us here (despite BOS probably representing the more 'moral' teenagers of society) are going to 'burn' in sulphur fires for eternity (fucking long time), have our flesh scraped off daily, yet, the next day have it back for the process to repeat itself etc

We are really condemned to that, simply because we don't 'see' this 'truth' you throw at us? LOL such a loving God you follow. It's MY fault, yet he gave me the free will and knew what I was going to do anyway. Personally, I think if you do believe that and EXPECT that for non-Christian’s then you are far more immoral then the rest of us, and respectively more deserving. How can you guarantee that the Bible wasn't a test from God- a test that if you selfishly followed it (and murdered/discriminated in its name, as millions of Christian’s have done) then YOU aren't going to Hell?

Short answer, you can't. Unless you'd like to presuppose a new definition of Hell for my entertainment.

I dont claim to know the nature of Hell. It is by definition being divorced from God - whatever that's like.

We believe that you not only have the ability to seek out God, but that you are born into such a relationship and make conscious choices to separate yourself from Him by acting against His moral law - to love Him and eachother.

Your claim about the Bible is absurd. I'm not happy about the situation. I want you to live, I want me to live. I'm not confident of my position, but I am confident of the Truth

 

[Lukybear]

A belief has changed you? You mean you weren't a moral, ethical, humane human before belief in a god? Or has it changed your mood - has it made you happier? Why do you think that is?



It's not that I don't want to "consider the imperceptible". It's that the imperceptible, by definition, can't be perceived, and therefore has absolutely no influence, or bearing, on anything I personally do or choose in this reality (whatever this reality happens to be - actually real, virtual, whatever). Therefore, what's the point? If your god cannot be perceived - and that is by your definition - then what is the point of a belief in it, especially since that it can never, ever be proven?

EDIT: And no, I have never felt even a shadow of perception of anything supernatural, be it ghosts, faeries, garden gnomes or gods.

It was my point from the very begging. I said that God cannot be proven using science, but i belive because i can feel. Therefore i can percieve. Being proven logically and feeling intutively is very very different things.

And yes, i can say that i am a better human being now then before. Just saying, mabey more loving or less tight, although not perfect.

PS: If you never felt God before, mabey its because you havent tried to percieve. How can one discover something in science, if they dont do countless of experiments and seek it out? In the same way you should try and percieve God.

 

[KFunk]

I dont claim to know the nature of Hell. It is by definition being divorced from God - whatever that's like.

We believe that you not only have the ability to seek out God, but that you are born into such a relationship and make conscious choices to separate yourself from Him by acting against His moral law - to love Him and eachother.

Your claim about the Bible is absurd. I'm not happy about the situation. I want you to live, I want me to live. I'm not confident of my position, but I am confident of the Truth

Iron - just letting you know that you are my favourite wrought metal straw man.

 

[Cookie182]

Ideas for the mixing pot:

I've attached an article you might find interesting. It considers the (Aristotelian) foundations of western ethics and thus why it may be individual- or ego-driven compared to the other-directed ethics found in Confucianism. Only tangentially relevant, but food for thought nonetheless.

Also, note the difference between rejecting the self and being reduced to a 'core self' (if such a thing even exists?). I haven't spent much time considering the Buddhist doctrine of anatman (or 'no self') but I would warn against being too quick in filtering it through western philosophy of mind.

Thank you for the insight, I will give it consideration over the next few days and post my thoughts respectively.

 

[rant]

The Problem with your question is that you assume we are all good people, we are not, we are all dirty rotten sinners there is no such thing as living a good life we all deserve to go to hell, even christians. do believe that we are elect by God, to say otherwise is un-biblical but i think we get to seek God to some extent and i think that if you truly seek God with the intention of finding him he will reveal himself ( I am up for correction on this) I do not see God as a cruel and sadistic creator at all cos he send's some people to heaven and some to hell, if someone goes to hell it is there fault the reality is they sin

I believe Homosexuals do make the decision to engage in homosexual relationships.

And that peolple of other relgions are worshipping false God's which is sinful.

the fact that you're older than i am, and actually quite serious about this, frightens me. i can't lie

you'd like kids to be taught creationism correct? that gravity does not exist and god keeps everything nice and snug on earth>?

 

[Iron]

If I only had a brain!
(I'd unravel any riddle, For any individ'le, In trouble or in pain ...)

 

[Cookie182]

The Problem with your question is that you assume we are all good people, we are not, we are all dirty rotten sinners there is no such thing as living a good life we all deserve to go to hell, even christians. do believe that we are elect by God, to say otherwise is un-biblical but i think we get to seek God to some extent and i think that if you truly seek God with the intention of finding him he will reveal himself ( I am up for correction on this) I do not see God as a cruel and sadistic creator at all cos he send's some people to heaven and some to hell, if someone goes to hell it is there fault the reality is they sin

I believe Homosexuals do make the decision to engage in homosexual relationships.

And that peolple of other relgions are worshipping false God's which is sinful.

Simply, I believe your brain-washed beyond recovery.

 

[Lukybear]

There seems little doubt that you are bound for the hot place

O Iron... Have faith in our Lord. He is powerful.

 

[Kwayera]

It was my point from the very begging. I said that God cannot be proven using science, but i belive because i can feel. Therefore i can percieve. Being proven logically and feeling intutively is very very different things.

I'm sorry to have to repeat myself, but, how do you know it's not Tezcatlipoca? Ixchel? Re-Horakhty? How do you know that it's not just your mind playing tricks on you?

You don't. You can't. So why believe it?

PS: If you never felt God before, mabey its because you havent tried to percieve. How can one discover something in science, if they dont do countless of experiments and seek it out? In the same way you should try and percieve God.

And how would you propose I "try to perceive"? (Well actually, I can have someone stimulate the areas of my brain that induce religious experiences/alien abduction experiences/near death experiences, but I don't think that is what you mean.)

 

[Iron]

I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain

I'd unravel any riddle
For any individ'le
In trouble or in pain

(Dorothy)
With the thoughts you'd be thinkin'
You could be another Lincoln
If you only had a brain

(Scarecrow)
Oh, I would tell you why
The ocean's near the shore
I could think of things I never thunk before
And then I'd sit and think some more

I would not be just a nuffin'
My head all full of stuffin'
My heart all full of pain
I would dance and be merry
Life would be a ding-a-derry
If I only had a brain

 

[Cookie182]

And I'm confident you are a good person, but that according to our Christian friend above means little (we all deserve eternal damnation). Perhaps I am mistaken- my limited scripture knowledge has leaded me to believe that Hell is a place of eternal fire and torture. Would you concede Iron that this may well be just a 15th century artistic depiction. I mean, if it is simply life divorced from God- what would change anyway for a non-believer?

And I do not believe my claim is anymore absurd then yours that the Bible is the "blind truth". I mean, unless you can provide evidence that I'm wrong- I can have "faith" which transcends logic, correct? Therefore, I can believe in anything and it has as much validity as Christianity or religion in general.

 

[Lukybear]

Simply, I believe your brain-washed beyond recovery.

Or rather you are too deep in sin. Remember God is PERFECT. That any sort of small amount of sin means judgement. Also know that you are insignificant humans, who is part of God's creation.

Emytaylor is perfectly correct.

 

[Kwayera]

I always thought that the idea of Hell was simply "the absense of God", and the fiery images were euphamistic. Not such a bad thing, really.

 

[Kwayera]

read revelation the judgement for the non-believe is very very painful, i think you are described as grapes in a wine press

Mmm, such a loving god you have..

 

[big8oyjames]

real question for the religious folks on this thread isn't really about the existence of god or what not, but more so the hypothetical situation where if your faith is proven to be wrong and another religion is proven to be correct.

would you be strong enough to let go and embrace the truth?

 

[Cookie182]

just because i have different beliefs it does not mean i am brainwashed

You don't "have" them- you didn't "choose" them. They are a product simply of your upbringing; something in many cases I would equate to child abuse. I mean, you said it yourself, If you were to have been raised in Saudi and been a Muslim you would of believed in those "false gods"- and been sent to Hell. Come on please, get some common sense. When you became a Christian your mind was in its developmental stages- at that stage, we accept as opposed to challenge. You form your external identity around a reality which was spoon fed to you, and now, you can not fathom anyone reality. That's cool, but is fundamentally a belief that insights hatred and segregation. There is a child in India or Pakistan with as much "faith" as you- believing your going to their Hell. Who is right? Well, that's what we've have had (and still have) wars over, isn't it!

Also, what fate did people meet pre-Christianity? You know, the Egyptians, the Aztecs, Ancient China, The Japanese, The Aboriginals, Cavemen, how could they "accept" Christ before he even came to Earth?

If you can not at least accept that these questions raise doubt to your fundamental belief, then you are by definition, brain-washed.

Edit: Even if you had found Christ as a Muslim living in Saudi, let's recall the penalty for apostasy in Islam?

 

[rant]

read revelation the judgement for the non-believe is very very painful, i think you are described as grapes in a wine press

again with the fire and brimstone!!!!!!!!!

 

[Lukybear]

I'm sorry to have to repeat myself, but, how do you know it's not Tezcatlipoca? Ixchel? Re-Horakhty? How do you know that it's not just your mind playing tricks on you?

You don't. You can't. So why believe it?

I ask you the same thing. How do you know your nothign but binary codes?

You dont't. You can't. So why belive in reality?

Please dont say you dont...

And how would you propose I "try to perceive"? (Well actually, I can have someone stimulate the areas of my brain that induce religious experiences/alien abduction experiences/near death experiences, but I don't think that is what you mean.)

Well, stimulation is going to be costly, at least 10 grand, and i know that your a student and not rich. Man oh man, sure thats how all christians do it, by deep brain stimulation. But for you, i let you come to church for free and hear the teachings without a charge.

 

[rant]

ah lukybear (EDIT: everyone; EDIT EDIT: anyone?) perhaps you would be so kind as to answer my question

i wanted to raise the issue of jesus and the prophets, they are the messengers of god, and scripture claims they have always been met with scorn. Why doesn't god create more acceptable missionaries? i mean if he sent down an actor, a president to preach his word perhaps more people would listen.

*if a bum, dishvelled, bearded, somemewhat filthy, approached you as you were making your way to Town Hall Station claiming that he was the son of god, would you believe him? Would you drop everything you had, your life, your love to follow him, to become fishers of men? Or would you shun him, and arrest him for being a public nuisance?

And if you wont, why should I?

 

[Iron]

And I'm confident you are a good person, but that according to our Christian friend above means little (we all deserve eternal damnation). Perhaps I am mistaken- my limited scripture knowledge has leaded me to believe that Hell is a place of eternal fire and torture. Would you concede Iron that this may well be just a 15th century artistic depiction. I mean, if it is simply life divorced from God- what would change anyway for a non-believer?

And I do not believe my claim is anymore absurd then yours that the Bible is the "blind truth". I mean, unless you can provide evidence that I'm wrong- I can have "faith" which transcends logic, correct? Therefore, I can believe in anything and it has as much validity as Christianity or religion in general.

It's not such a wild proposition to say that we are inherently evil - or will always opt for the most selfish and individually benificial option, to the detriment of many others. Serious atheists believe this also, though they offer no explaination like original sin.

I also dont agree that "faith" gives one license to disguard any scientific truth or any logic or reason that stares us in the face. Evolution is a good example, where the Church is open to the idea that we evolved as a species and that we should therefore read Genisis poetically. No probs, the theology can adapt to great human endevours. Likewise, I thnk that the Christian has to have his beliefs grounded in specific theology revolving around the moral law. This job of reconcilling the Word with the World is best left to the professionals - that is why Catholics have a tight organisation to resolve such matters that arise by the by