Does God exist? (4 Viewers)

[rant]

If people murder for God, then they are acting contrary to His wishes, k?

reminds me of fundamentalist islam

just sayin'

 

[Iron]

Ofc that's a valid criticism of Islam! Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached

 

[Cookie182]

reminds me of fundamentalist islam

just sayin'

Or the million's of evangelicalists in the states, openly preaching hatred towards gays because of passage's from Corinthians etc

Or Jews and Muslims killing each other

Or the Irish

Or Christian's condemning child-rape victims for abortions

Or Muslim’s EXECUTING girls who were raped, or people wanting to change religion, or just generally treating non-Muslims as second-class citizens (that is discrimination).

You can not tell me Iron, despite it's 'beauty' that religion does not promote segregation.

Edit: Also "fundamentalist" as a euphemistic distinction is being over-played by the media. It's as though they segrate theist's based on those who actually carry out the hate actions. Now I know there are 'moderate' forms of ideology with both faiths etc. But when you consider it, your either a follower of that faith's core ideologies or your not. If you accept them, then on some base level you promote segregation.

 

[Iron]

Dont try to make me speak for all religion. I speak as a Catholic only and as such, we have been at pains to bring people into the fold for thousands of years. Mistakes have been made - we all struggle with our temptations for power or sex or money and we often fail to overcome them, we all admit that - but the Truth has remained the same.
But it's ABSURD to claim that we are somehow more divisive than your shamelessly selfish ideology that seeks to view the world through an entirely subjective lense - in anarchist terms - sucking as much personal, selfish experience from it as possible, with no view to others or even the future or even any real love of any person external to yourself

 

[Tangent]

you should be able to use common sense and use the bible to guide ur life, anyone who takes every single bit of the bible desires life after death. Why not live life now, rather than after death

 

[Cookie182]

Ofc that's a valid criticism of Islam! Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached

See, your an atheist when it comes to Judaism or Islam or any otherreligion. You go back to being as rational as me. You just won't allow it for Christianity. Why? A better question to ask would be: Is there ANY PART of Christian ideology you do not agree with? I mean, can you take a step out and logically critique?

 

[Cookie182]

Dont try to make me speak for all religion. I speak as a Catholic only and as such, we have been at pains to bring people into the fold for thousands of years. Mistakes have been made - we all struggle with our temptations for power or sex or money and we often fail to overcome them, we all admit that - but the Truth has remained the same.
But it's ABSURD to claim that we are somehow more divisive than your shamelessly selfish ideology that seeks to view the world through an entirely subjective lense - in anarchist terms - sucking as much personal, selfish experience from it as possible, with no view to others or even the future.

My goals in life are actually to help people in what ever way I can. Sure, it's selfish on some level, I have to accept that, since i reject pure altruism. But I think that you are not a better person then me due to your Catholisim. I justify actions only to myself- in many ways I like the Kanthian view on morality. Stop and ask before an action would you like this to be a universal law? Sure, Kant had specific issues (as lieing to save a life could be questionable) but overall, I have caused little to no harm on any other human.

And the question you raised by making such absurd comments towards an atheist's morality is- do you fear without the support of a majority, you would be lead astray? Don't you feel that your strong enough to follow an individualist path of morality? Why be the sheep, when you can be the Shepherd?

 

[Iron]

Sure, there's heaps. There is much that is up for valid criticism. For instance, the insistance that all clergy be men and cannot marry. But the more I seek, the more I understand that these things have been carefully honed for hundreds of years and are very careful to remain as true as possible to the Word, as Christ commanded.
You dont take a stand against it for the sake of "change" lol

 

[Cookie182]

No one has ever justified why sex is wrong either- from a moral point of view, between two people willing to have it? I mean, if you take the standpoint that your harming no-one with such a private act, JUSTIFY to me why 'fornication' is evil?

 

[Tangent]

god maybe perfect, but religion sure ain't

 

[Cookie182]

Sure, there's heaps. There is much that is up for valid criticism. For instance, the insistance that all clergy be men and cannot marry. But the more I seek, the more I understand that these things have been carefully honed for hundreds of years and are very careful to remain as true as possible to the Word, as Christ commanded.
You dont take a stand against it for the sake of "change" lol

But you also shouldn't fear taking a legitimate 'stance' on an issue either, if you felt it needed challenging.

Additionally, on morality. I respect you Iron as a fellow man. It's one of my values I have set for myself. I wouldn't steal from you, have sex with your wife, cause you or loved one's physical or emotional harm nor belittle you in front of others. I do my best to save your life, as I would for any other stranger, given a certain set of circumstances (but I wouldn't foreseeably self-sacrifice). Now the question then becomes, if I live by these standards and offer you this respect yet irrespective of being non-Christian, how do you view me from an ethical standpoint?

 

[Iron]

My goals in life are actually to help people in what ever way I can. Sure, it's selfish on some level, I have to accept that, since i reject pure altruism. But I think that you are not a better person then me due to your Catholisim. I justify actions only to myself- in many ways I like the Kanthian view on morality. Stop and ask before an action would you like this to be a universal law? Sure, Kant had specific issues (as lieing to save a life could be questionable) but overall, I have caused little to no harm on any other human.

And the question you raised by making such absurd comments towards an atheist's morality is- do you fear without the support of a majority, you would be lead astray? Don't you feel that your strong enough to follow an individualist path of morality? Why be the sheep, when you can be the Shepherd?

Haha get thee behind me temptress. Has it not penetrated that the individual desire for power is what Christianity expressly opposes? Dont you see the logic of your situation - that by defining your life as the most valuable thing in all reality, you set yourself above all other lives and should do whatever is possible to achieve power? I mean, as an atheist, from what basis do you view another life as valuable? As equal to your own?
It's a con.

I dont know what youre talking about with the majority. I'm practically an 'individualist' on here

 

[Lukybear]

You just said earlier that you perceive a god to be there, and I said, essentially, "how do you know it is what it is and not something else?" because you are apparently convinced of it. Your "intuition" is your perception. Comparing it, in this context, with my apparent belief in perceiving this.. apparition of reality as real is a straw man in this context, as the reality - or not - of.. reality has no bearing on what I do. I do not care. You, clearly, do, with regards to your belief in your god.

So what are you tring to say?Look, the only revelation of God, that is not my intuition is the Bible. Obviously you all risregard it for w/e reason. Thus my only perception of God is the intuition.

But knowing if your world is fictious does have bearing on what you do. If your all but binary coding and you know that, you woudn't act normally. But because of your inability to percieve it does not affect you.

I am continually amazed at the egotism you Christians show when someone like me goes through all the motions, and finds nothing that you claim to find. "Oh, you just don't have an open mind!" Horseshit. I was exposed to your Bible and your god when I was six years old. No one that age goes around convinced anything is fake.

Well, when i was six, i wanted nothing more but candy and food. One need to be at an age when you can grasp the hard truths of Christianity. When you became mature enough to do so, I belive your faith has already faltered?

Tell me for so long you've attended church, what destroyed your faith?

 

[Cookie182]

Haha get thee behind me temptress. Has it not penetrated that the individual desire for power is what Christianity expressly opposes? Dont you see the logic of your situation - that by defining your life as the most valuable thing in all reality, you set yourself above all other lives and should do whatever is possible to achieve power? I mean, as an atheist, from what basis do you view another life as valuable? As equal to your own?
It's a con.

I dont know what youre talking about with the majority. I'm practically an 'individualist' on here

Where did I say I seek ultimate power? Did you infer that by me saying I'd help others? So what, you can say that as Christian purely because you use God's name as a scapegoat?

Well, to me, my life is the most valuable thing in my reality and I hope for your sake your's is too. We live on EARTH once- you think we go further, but irrespectively, why not live the most fulfilling and happy life possible? I view all humans as equal. I figured you would of gathered that from my libertarian standpoint on issues. It's an absurd insult that theist's imply atheist's can not have morals. Plus, since there is no 'proof' of God and it is purely your own 'faith' (which I could question as inherently selfish in many theists) then you can not prove that your moral legitimacy is any more 'absolute' then mine. "The Bible says so" is not a good enough justification.

Quite frankly Iron, I'm rather disappointed
You’re an individualist relative to the forum- but we are talking about the doctrine you adopt on life, and your certainly not alone there. Wasn’t there 2 billion Christians in the world at last count?

 

[Iron]

Now the question then becomes, if I live by these standards and offer you this respect yet irrespective of being non-Christian, how do you view me from an ethical standpoint?

Suspiciously, because I dont really believe it, but I am forced to assume such goodness in everyone. But seriously, great, i'd have no beef. Honestly, I dont think that i'm entitled to have much beef if you were the opposite. I cant judge you seriously, or try to convice you with slick salesmanship that my Christian life results in the greatest pleasures known to man - it doesnt; it's hard and often no fun. But, you know, life is meant to be that way. The good are meant to struggle; we are meant to go through the fire to bring out the shine in our gold.

At any rate, I think that if you were to truely devote your life to the service of others, it would not be long until your opposition collapsed and you made your peace with God

 

[Kwayera]

Well, when i was six, i wanted nothing more but candy and food. One need to be at an age when you can grasp the hard truths of Christianity. When you became mature enough to do so, I belive your faith has already faltered?

Tell me for so long you've attended church, what destroyed your faith?

My "faith" was never destroyed. I never had faith to begin with.

 

[Iron]

Where did I say I seek ultimate power? Did you infer that by me saying I'd help others? So what, you can say that as Christian purely because you use God's name as a scapegoat?

Well, to me, my life is the most valuable thing in my reality and I hope for your sake your's is too. We live on EARTH once- you think we go further, but irrespectively, why not live the most fulfilling and happy life possible? I view all humans as equal. I figured you would of gathered that from my libertarian standpoint on issues. It's an absurd insult that theist's imply atheist's can not have morals. Plus, since there is no 'proof' of God and it is purely your own 'faith' (which I could question as inherently selfish in many theist's) then you can not prove that your moral legitimcy is any more 'absolute' then mine. "The Bible says so" is not a good enough justification.

Quite frankly Iron, I'm rather disappointed

? Of course my life is not the most valuabel thing in my reality??? The Truth is the greatest, above all else - it is something I would eagerly give my life for, seriously, earth sucks.

As to absolutes, I dont have the energy atm to convince you of the logical destination of your beliefs. Read Nietzsche

 

[da-g91]

There is no proof 2 believe that god does or doesn't exist and i really don't think it really matters.

When people believe in God it brings out the best in them. that is disregarding extremist views.

 

[Kwayera]

When people believe in God it brings out the best in them. that is disregarding extremist views.

It does? How?

 

[KFunk]

When people believe in God it brings out the best in them. that is disregarding extremist views.

Kind of like the proposition 'all people are moral' with the qualifier 'disregarding those that are misguided'.