Does God exist? (10 Viewers)

[HotShot]

Maths is discovered by man, not created. This is shown by how several different cultures managed to develop mathematics up to various points, with all their results consistent with every other culture's mathematics.

No maths was created by man, cos maths didnt exists always. Before man maths didnt exists -lol who did the maths - th eplants dinosaurs etc.

When Man evolved, maths was created by us. To maths is a discovery is a suggestion that it always existed which is wrong.

 

[HotShot]

By unreal do you mean an idea that isn't realisable (since unreal ussually entails something which is not real as aposed to something can never be real)? There were times when people have knocked back certain technological ideas as being impossible or 'unreal' only for them to be developed some time later. Does something that was once real continue to be real if it ceases to exist? (i.e. if it is completely broken down, with atoms scattered apart etc). I'm just interested in what you define as 'real' 'cause I'm unsure about the 'real'-ness of your claims .

if there was another word unreal- perhaps we need to invent it. i would use it.

Basically food is real, a hullucination of food is not reat, but the hallucination is real.

unreal i mean not as in saying it can nevery happen. more like unreal as in ghosts..
yes -"does someting that was once real continue to be real if it cease to exist? -interesting question:
no its not real if it ceases to exists, it becomes irrelavant if its real or no real if somethin doesnt exist. But if it exists its real.

Real is something that you know exists. ghosts dont exist and therefore ghosts are not real, but figment of the idea of a ghost is real in your brain.

 

[Pianpupodoel]

Just an idea, but you can study/think for some time only to state that you still do not know enough.

That's what philosophy is all about.

 

[withoutaface]

No maths was created by man, cos maths didnt exists always. Before man maths didnt exists -lol who did the maths - th eplants dinosaurs etc.

When Man evolved, maths was created by us. To maths is a discovery is a suggestion that it always existed which is wrong.

But maths could not exist in any other way than it does today, except advanced more or less along the line of progress in certain areas. Its rules were less created by man, but discovered imo.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

No maths was created by man, cos maths didnt exists always. Before man maths didnt exists -lol who did the maths - th eplants dinosaurs etc.

When Man evolved, maths was created by us. To maths is a discovery is a suggestion that it always existed which is wrong.

I disagree.

The elements of maths always existed, just not the discipline or the study of maths. Long before humans existed, 2+2 still equaled 4 (2 being a certain quantity and 4 being two times that quantity). We didn't "invent" this rule. It can be translated into whatever language you want, but the core of mathematics seems objective and universal, regardless of whether humans are there to call it maths or not.

 

[HotShot]

I disagree.

The elements of maths always existed, just not the discipline or the study of maths. Long before humans existed, 2+2 still equaled 4 (2 being a certain quantity and 4 being two times that quantity). We didn't "invent" this rule. It can be translated into whatever language you want, but the core of mathematics seems objective and universal, regardless of whether humans are there to call it maths or not.

Maths is just not adding, adding is a complex process it requires counting and identification, before humans existed this couldnt have existed because only humans knew how to identify and count. I still feel maths is a creation, because maths need not exist.

As you said 2+2 will always equal four, but that only work with humans, other things, plants etc dont know that. and thus its a creation of man. without humans, maths wouldnt have existed, the other things on earth had no knowledge, its only humans that created maths and used it.

 

[davin]

Mathamatics is in no way the same situation as religion.
While one could argue that maths is a creation of man, it is an example of logic, not a creation of belief like religion. In religion, you are expected to, on faith alone, assume things to be true. Example being that in christianity, you have to accept the Bible, in full, as truth. This is based entirely on faith.
With mathamatics, on the other hand, it is all based on logical extensions. There are not any jumps of faith...you develop the larger body of math as a whole by following logical conclusions and proofs from that which you already know.
Maths is then used to be able to accurately predict all manner of things, proving its accuracy. I'd be interested to see where it is maths does not work currectly.

The nearest comparison would be that people discovered the Law of Gravity. While gravity existed prior to Newton, the law that explained it did not. however, observations were made, eventually the law was formed, and is constantly being refined to become more accurate.


This also does show the main difference between maths/sciences and most, if not all religions. Where innaccuracies do exist in maths and sciences, or where things are not adequately explained, the idea is to change our beliefs on how things work to better reflect the real world. In contrast, in religion, the tendancy is to try to manipulate what is observed to be accurate with the assumptions initially made in religion. Maths/sciences are an attempt to explain how things work. Religion is a version of how things supposedly work that one then tries to prove using only scattered proof from the real world.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

As you said 2+2 will always equal four, but that only work with humans, other things, plants etc dont know that. and thus its a creation of man. without humans, maths wouldnt have existed, the other things on earth had no knowledge, its only humans that created maths and used it.

Before humans existed... maths existed. Man discovered maths, however it did not invent it. Before humans realised it, two plus two equalled 4.

 

[ur_inner_child]

heh

i had a similar conversation with someone who believed God created the centimetre, which is an entirely different thing.

 

[HotShot]

Before humans existed... maths existed. Man discovered maths, however it did not invent it. Before humans realised it, two plus two equalled 4.

maths could not have existed before humans, think of this who calculate maths? maths is simply not logic! - it requires input from humans like a calculator. Before humans existed there was no input. Its like a calculator with no buttons!

humans created the notion/ or ideology of mathematics. In other words they 'used' maths or created it.

there was no '2+2' before humans existed, its only after that humans started adding, before noone could add/subtract etc.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Space and time existed before humans existed... all of these things were measurable although there was no one to measure it. Really the fact that there was no calculation going on is simply not true, without calculations occuring there would not have been a universe. Humans discovered and observe maths occuring, however before we knew pythagoras's theorum, the maths still existed.

 

[ogmzergrush]

maths could not have existed before humans, think of this who calculate maths? maths is simply not logic! - it requires input from humans like a calculator. Before humans existed there was no input. Its like a calculator with no buttons!

humans created the notion/ or ideology of mathematics. In other words they 'used' maths or created it.

there was no '2+2' before humans existed, its only after that humans started adding, before noone could add/subtract etc.

Let's say that a dinosaur ate one dinosaur, and it felt a little less hungry. Now let's say it ate one MORE dinosaur, it'd feel even less hungry. So it'd know that one dinosaur and one dinosaur was a pretty good feed, while just one dinosaur on its own wasn't so flash. Of course the dinosaur doesn't realise that it's working on basic addition, but that doesn't change the fact that that's what it's doing.

I think the point is that the patterns and what-not which we've recognised, calculated and whatever else all existed previously, but were simply lacking in realisation. The fact that we don't understand something and haven't given it a name doesn't mean that it's not in action. Take gravity for example, I'm pretty sure it's been doing its thing since long before it was called that by us.

PS: How many times do I have to unsubscribe from this thread, only to be drawn back by late night boredom?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Let's say that a dinosaur ate one dinosaur, and it felt a little less hungry. Now let's say it ate one MORE dinosaur, it'd feel even less hungry. So it'd know that one dinosaur and one dinosaur was a pretty good feed, while just one dinosaur on its own wasn't so flash. Of course the dinosaur doesn't realise that it's working on basic addition, but that doesn't change the fact that that's what it's doing.

I think the point is that the patterns and what-not which we've recognised, calculated and whatever else all existed previously, but were simply lacking in realisation. The fact that we don't understand something and haven't given it a name doesn't mean that it's not in action. Take gravity for example, I'm pretty sure it's been doing its thing since long before it was called that by us.

PS: How many times do I have to unsubscribe from this thread, only to be drawn back by late night boredom?

late night? I'm up waiting for my mates to pick me up for summernats

 

[gerhard]

guys, you realise you are arguing over a large philosophical question, similar to 'if a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound'

 

[ogmzergrush]

guys, you realise you are arguing over a large philosophical question, similar to 'if a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound'

Yes, I think everyone is aware of that.

 

[withoutaface]

HotShot: were the laws of physics invented or discovered by man?

 

[SashatheMan]

guys, you realise you are arguing over a large philosophical question, similar to 'if a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound'

i always wondered why that question is considered so philosophical.

ofcourse it does. Its like saying becuase i live in Australia, does that mean that America exists?

 

[HotShot]

HotShot: were the laws of physics invented or discovered by man?

hm.. they were created.

Think it like this, its only humans that exploit and use these laws. And to say that they existed before mankind is bit like saying that aliens existed. You have to think in this manner, what if humans didnt evovle, then would the laws of physics exist? it wouldnt because there wasnt anyone to create through investigation.

nothing can exist withouts someones, somethings creation. The notion, nature, and how it works were all created by man, otherwise we wont understand physics.

 

[gerhard]

i always wondered why that question is considered so philosophical.

ofcourse it does. Its like saying becuase i live in Australia, does that mean that America exists?

Do you know that america exists?

This is the philosophical area of inquiry known as epistemology. It generally deals with what we can actually 'know' about the world.

The quote in question was said by the good Bishop Berkeley I believe.

here might be a goop place to start
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Berkeley#Contributions_to_Philosophy

 

[HotShot]

Do you know that america exists?

This is the philosophical area of inquiry known as epistemology. It generally deals with what we can actually 'know' about the world.

The quote in question was said by the good Bishop Berkeley I believe.

here might be a goop place to start
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Berkeley#Contributions_to_Philosophy

thats not true!

america exists because i have been there. if i havent been there then it doesnt exist- simple.

thus we as humans understand and use maths, thus we can say we created it. But to say it already exists, means then some other can understand it and exploit, but we do not know that. What we do not know cannot exist! - simple.

if you know it something, then that something must exist. if someone else doesnt know it (the same thing), then it doesnt exist.- simple

its like asking a baby do you know maths?