Does God Exist? (4 Viewers)

[dark_angel]

How do you know that you think? It's an axiomatic statement, which is exactly what Descartes was trying to avoid--he failed.

Ok, I do apologise for being far too assertive in some previous posts. I'm in the wrong forums. I keep thinking that I'm in the philosophy forums. Sorry.

youre too good at english for us. so stop using pshcyo words

 

[acmilan]

From maths, axiomatic statement = just accepted statement without question

 

[thaoroxy2001]

MAN!! this thread is so long.......

 

[dark_angel]

MAN!! this thread is so long.......

LOL
.............

 

[>Teearnee<:-)]

i couldn't agree more!!!
lol
this thread does go on forever...
we could go on forever eh>>>

the bottom line is no-one can believe God without God having something to do with it... everybody is dead in sin, so how can someone dead do something...only Christ can make a person alive and realise their need for Him... it's a heart thing...
not something you can really say in words...
i believe in God, only because of His grace, not because of something i did.

I'm so sorry there is no magic word... i know some people look @ this thread and go "what a waste of time"... in some respects they may be right in the sense that there is a trend of circling round... lol
but in all seriousness, the Bible says that the Lord knows those that are His... so look at your life, think about whether you reckon you'll be in need of a saviour when God looks at you on judgement day... God is listening and He is with you right now so if you want to talk to the one who made you go right ahead!
cause believe it or not, the day of the Lord (judgement day) is a fast appraoching reality.

 

[katie_tully]

I feel sorry for the way Athiesm has been stomped on and degraded in this entire thread. Personally I believe that athiesm wouldn't exist to a certain degree if theists didn't try and convert non believers.

I have a problem with the following;
If God can prevent evil, but doesn't, then He isn't all-loving
If God intends to prevent evil, but cannot, then He isn't omnipotent
If God both intends to prevent evil and is capable of doing so, then how can evil exist?

"If God is omniscient, He must know beforehand exactly what a person will do in a given situation. In that case, a person is not in fact free to do the alternative to what God knows he or she will do, and free will must be an illusion. To take this one step further, if one chooses to commit a sin, how can it then be said that one sinned freely?"

 

[tWiStEdD]

hear, hear.
I'm agonistic. Its far more reasonable than athiesm.

 

[acmilan]

I feel sorry for the way Athiesm has been stomped on and degraded in this entire thread. Personally I believe that athiesm wouldn't exist to a certain degree if theists didn't try and convert non believers.

I have a problem with the following;
If God can prevent evil, but doesn't, then He isn't all-loving
If God intends to prevent evil, but cannot, then He isn't omnipotent
If God both intends to prevent evil and is capable of doing so, then how can evil exist?

"If God is omniscient, He must know beforehand exactly what a person will do in a given situation. In that case, a person is not in fact free to do the alternative to what God knows he or she will do, and free will must be an illusion. To take this one step further, if one chooses to commit a sin, how can it then be said that one sinned freely?"

I dont see atheism being degraded in here. You must understand that it is believed by many that what happens in this lifetime is useless. God promises heaven to those that deserve it so why stop people from dying from evils in this world when they can triumph over evil in heaven.

 

[katie_tully]

You must understand that it is believed by many that what happens in this lifetime is useless. God promises heaven to those that deserve it so why stop people from dying from evils in this world when they can triumph over evil in heaven.

Okay, that said, why does anybody bother living then? What is the purpose of life if we cannot triumph over evil and are just going to heaven anyway?

 

[acmilan]

Okay, that said, why does anybody bother living then? What is the purpose of life if we cannot triumph over evil and are just going to heaven anyway?

Well one viewpoint could be that earth was heaven initially but through original sin it was degraded and hence now humans live a finite amount of years on earth.

 

[katie_tully]

That said, sin was only created because of the actions of two people; Adam and Eve. Then there was the flood that wiped out man kind what was apparently supposed to clean the slate.... Which lead to the creation of the Tower of Babel, which lead to further human conflicts.

I'm sorry, I just find the whole notion completely unfathomable.
But if it works for you people, good luck.

 

[acmilan]

That said, sin was only created because of the actions of two people; Adam and Eve. Then there was the flood that wiped out man kind what was apparently supposed to clean the slate.... Which lead to the creation of the Tower of Babel, which lead to further human conflicts.

I'm sorry, I just find the whole notion completely unfathomable.
But if it works for you people, good luck.

It definitely works for me. I was one who started of Catholic mainly because my parents were. Then I lost my way, really didnt believe in anything but still called myself a Catholic. It is only recently that I once again found a passion for it and started studying it at a greater depth than covered in school. Funnily enough I 'rediscovered God' at about the same time that I started posting in this thread way abck when it was first created.

 

[>Teearnee<:-)]

I have a problem with the following;
If God can prevent evil, but doesn't, then He isn't all-loving
If God intends to prevent evil, but cannot, then He isn't omnipotent
If God both intends to prevent evil and is capable of doing so, then how can evil exist?

"If God is omniscient, He must know beforehand exactly what a person will do in a given situation. In that case, a person is not in fact free to do the alternative to what God knows he or she will do, and free will must be an illusion. To take this one step further, if one chooses to commit a sin, how can it then be said that one sinned freely?"

God is indeed powerful...
the truth is He DOES prevent evil
Satan is present in this world therefore bad things happen, Satan is behind these things, though God knows about them before they take place and He allows them to happen (evil only happens because we have sinned)...though thankfully He is merciful because if He were to be fully just we would all suffer hell everyday... to the eyes of a non-believer that doesn't make any sense whatsoever but believe it or not God has a plan for all things,

Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."that doesnt mean that believers are never going to suffer... because the Bible says that we are to expect suffering... but that we can trust that God knows what He is doing and that we can have faith and courage in the fact that He is with us and that no matter what life brings we have an "inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade"...

Prov 1:29-33 Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the LORD. "They would not accept my counsel, They spurned all my reproof. So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way And be satiated with their own devices. For the waywardness of the naive will kill them, And the complacency of fools will destroy them But he who listens to me shall live securely And will be at ease from the dread of evil."

... we have a choice cause we aren't robots, EVERYBODY chooses sin, we are born into sin, but God has mercy on some because He is gracious.

 

[Kierkegaard]

Just when this debate was sounding slightly intelligent...

 

[katie_tully]

God is indeed powerful...
the truth is He DOES prevent evil
Satan is present in this world therefore bad things happen, Satan is behind these things, though God knows about them before they take place and He allows them to happen (evil only happens because we have sinned)...though thankfully He is merciful because if He were to be fully just we would all suffer hell everyday... to the eyes of a non-believer that doesn't make any sense whatsoever but believe it or not God has a plan for all things,

Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."that doesnt mean that believers are never going to suffer... because the Bible says that we are to expect suffering... but that we can trust that God knows what He is doing and that we can have faith and courage in the fact that He is with us and that no matter what life brings we have an "inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade"...

Prov 1:29-33 Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the LORD. "They would not accept my counsel, They spurned all my reproof. So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way And be satiated with their own devices. For the waywardness of the naive will kill them, And the complacency of fools will destroy them But he who listens to me shall live securely And will be at ease from the dread of evil."

... we have a choice cause we aren't robots, EVERYBODY chooses sin, we are born into sin, but God has mercy on some because He is gracious.

My IQ just dropped about 10 fold after reading that.
It is the most contradictory load of blah blah I've ever read.
Lately, I haven't seen your almighty Lord being too merciful or gracious.
The truth is, he doesn't prevent evil, because if he did prevent evil it would cease to exist. He himself invented Evil because he invented Lucifer. If God knows about these things before they take place he has the power to stop them.
If a person chooses sin - Murders an Innocent person. The innocent person is the victim here. God has the power to stop an innocent person from being murdered.
What is his excuse for a 3 month old baby being murdered? They did not choose sin.
Explain that one.

 

[Kierkegaard]

>Teearnee<, in defending God, you've brought into the debate yet another utterly unfounded, metaphysical proposition: the Devil exists. The burden of proof extends to yet another metaphysical a priori claim.

... we have a choice cause we aren't robots, EVERYBODY chooses sin, we are born into sin, but God has mercy on some because He is gracious.

1. We aren't robots.
2. Therefore we have free-will.

It doesn't take a genius to think of one counter-example in less than 0.1 seconds. Let's take rocks. Applying the first line of reasoning, it is safe to say that rocks are not robots, yet we find that this does not lead us to our conclusion of free-will. Rocks are not robots, yet they do NOT (I also like using capitals for individual words in a sentence) have free-will. You may not have heard this before, but if God is indeed omniscient, God cannot have free-will; not even the illusion of it! Now, if God does not have free-will, we do not. Unless you're willing to match wits in a debate of modality, this is where we draw conclusion: that orthodox (literal and simplistic) interpretations of the Bible produce a contradiction. I suggest not interpreting everything in the Bible as literal. Parables, metaphor, analogy--these things are devices used in the written composition of the Bible. It's not all literal!

 

[katie_tully]

>Teearnee<, in defending God, you've brought into the debate yet another utterly unfounded, metaphysical proposition: the Devil exists. The burden of proof extends to yet another metaphysical a priori claim.


1. We aren't robots.
2. Therefore we have free-will.

It doesn't take a genius to think of one counter-example in less than 0.1 seconds. Let's take rocks. Applying the first line of reasoning, it is safe to say that rocks are not robots, yet we find that this does not lead us to our conclusion of free-will. Rocks are not robots, yet they do NOT (I also like using capitals for individual words in a sentence) have free-will. You may not have heard this before, but if God is indeed omniscient, God cannot have free-will; not even the illusion of it! Now, if God does not have free-will, we do not. Unless you're willing to match wits in a debate of modality, this is where we draw conclusion: that orthodox (literal and simplistic) interpretations of the Bible produce a contradiction. I suggest not interpreting everything in the Bible as literal. Parables, metaphor, analogy--these things are devices used in the written composition of the Bible. It's not all literal!

I agree.
She obviously didn't read what I said.
""If God is omniscient, He must know beforehand exactly what a person will do in a given situation. In that case, a person is not in fact free to do the alternative to what God knows he or she will do, and free will must be an illusion. To take this one step further, if one chooses to commit a sin, how can it then be said that one sinned freely?"

Her statement didn't answer that at all. Instead she contradicted herself.

 

[Armani]

Prov 1:29-33 Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the LORD. "They would not accept my counsel, They spurned all my reproof. So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way And be satiated with their own devices. For the waywardness of the naive will kill them, And the complacency of fools will destroy them But he who listens to me shall live securely And will be at ease from the dread of evil."

... we have a choice cause we aren't robots, EVERYBODY chooses sin, we are born into sin, but God has mercy on some because He is gracious.[/COLOR]

So your saying that those who don't search out NEW knowledge is bad and yet you take ALL your knowledge from ONE book. Isn't it a little naive to believe in ONE book as opposed to accepting other ideas as well? But no, apparently not cause anything besides the teachings of the Bible is wrong. If God was a Leader of a Country, he sounds alot like a dictator. If you do his bidding and be the happy little workers he wants you to be, you will be treated nicely. Sounds alot like communism to me.

 

[budj]

And after all this y beleive god? Because he, or shite my bad, "it" or they, allows us an easy way out.

God is certainly not forgiving. According to a line of reasoning, he gave adam and eve a brain, chucked an apple tree in some garden, and told that u have to not eat it. Now one of humanity's greater traits is curiosity. According to another line of reasoning, god created curiosity. Therefore it was obvious that they were going to get the fruit. WTF god?

 

[katie_tully]

And after all this y beleive god? Because he, or shite my bad, "it" or they, allows us an easy way out.

God is certainly not forgiving. According to a line of reasoning, he gave adam and eve a brain, chucked an apple tree in some garden, and told that u have to not eat it. Now one of humanity's greater traits is curiosity. According to another line of reasoning, god created curiosity. Therefore it was obvious that they were going to get the fruit. WTF god?

lol you are gold. you are my new signature.