Down syndrome girl has cosmetic surgery (2 Viewers)

[boris]

I'm sorry, but are you implying that people with DS don't have feelings?
I never referred to poetry.

I am implying that you're a moron and get the hell out of this thread.

Stop making inferences. Nobody said they dont have feelings, but there ability to rationalise is severely limited.

So no, I don't think they go home with the same thought processes as somebody else. With an IQ between 30-70 you often don't go home and lament about the fact you've got Down Syndrome and the cool kids don't like you.

 

[bassistx]

I hope you NEVER end up working with disabled children.
I'll no longer post in this thread, as you requested. Although you're quite welcome to go back, read my posts, and experience the pain you described.

Enjoy.

 

[boris]

...

How can I not work with disabled children? READ WHAT I SAID. Here, I'll even spell it out for you.

Children with Down Syndrome on average have an IQ between 30-70. This classes them as mentally handicapped. As such their ability to rationalise their feelings is severely limited. As such, you won't find a child with Down Syndrome lamenting about their feelings in the same way a child of the same age without a mental disability will.

In freakin English for you this means that in no way are we detracting from the very real pain a child with Down Syndrome will feel, their ability to rationalise their pain is limited. HENCE THE REFERENCE TO EMO POETRY.

 

[KFunk]

Dude, you're misinterpreting me.
Of course I believe there is real discrimination against looks. I'm not an idiot.

What I'm saying is that;
a. I don't think the surgery is going to have the effect they think it will. If it's only minor cosmetic surgery to pin back her ears I am not convinced it's going to do anything to reduce any adversity she will face.
b. I think it's premature for them to make their 5 year old child have cosmetic surgery because of perceived hardships she will face in the future.
c. I hope for their childs sake they don't have the child convinced it's going to be a miracle cure

I think it's evident facial reconstruction could have a dramatic effect on improving facial features.
I'm just not convinced cosmetic surgery will have the same impact. Midface dysplasia is extremely hard to rectify, and whilst the cosmetic surgery might do something for the eye malformation I don't think it'll do enough because of the underlying structural problems.

Ahh, that's fair enough. At the end of the day I guess the efficacy of minor surgery is likely to depend on the features of the individual child. Also, I realise now that we were arguing at crossed purposes. I was making a more general case for aesthetically driven surgery, including facial reconstruction. Our disagreements make more sense given that your main objection was to the supposed usefulness of more minor procedures.

 

[youBROKEmyLIFE]

I don't think that was boris's original point, I think she's shifted the goal posts a lot...
Even if you don't think it's going to work all that well (based on having absolutely no idea about the kid's unique situation, something I'd say the parents/plastic surgeon are in a better position to decide) chances are it'll give somewhat of an improvement and unfortunately every little bit counts when it comes to beauty.

As you've been harping on about the 5 year old doesn't have any real awareness so the idea that she'll be let down when it's not a miracle cure is unwarranted.

Children with Down Syndrome on average have an IQ between 30-70. This classes them as mentally handicapped. As such their ability to rationalise their feelings is severely limited. As such, you won't find a child with Down Syndrome lamenting about their feelings in the same way a child of the same age without a mental disability will.

In freakin English for you this means that in no way are we detracting from the very real pain a child with Down Syndrome will feel, their ability to rationalise their pain is limited. HENCE THE REFERENCE TO EMO POETRY.

I think you'd be surprised how little intelligence you need to realise you're different, people are picking on you and you're not as pretty as other people. You won't find a child with down syndrome writing some complicated bullshit poetry, but if you're their mum you will definitely notice when they come home every day crying because the other kids pick on them and isn't this just an extension of doing everything possible to try to stop that from ever happening? Sure it still probably will, they undeniably will be different, but a better looking different kid will probably get along with them better than a more different looking one.

 

[Omium]

boris wins this thread

 

[boris]

I think you'd be surprised how little intelligence you need to realise you're different, people are picking on you and you're not as pretty as other people. You won't find a child with down syndrome writing some complicated bullshit poetry, but if you're their mum you will definitely notice when they come home every day crying because the other kids pick on them and isn't this just an extension of doing everything possible to try to stop that from ever happening? Sure it still probably will, they undeniably will be different, but a better looking different kid will probably get along with them better than a more different looking one.

And I'm saying it's premature to make a 5 year old undergo surgery for fear of future threats and I'm also saying I am not convinced minor surgery like this will have any real effect given the underlying facial construction.


And yes it was my argument all along, I just had trouble articulating it.


Dom, fuck off.

 

[youBROKEmyLIFE]

And I'm saying it's premature to make a 5 year old undergo surgery for fear of future threats

So you think it's wrong to fix up the superficial aesthetics of a 5 year old burns victim?

I'm also saying I am not convinced minor surgery like this will have any real effect given the underlying facial construction.

The discussion about what effect the surgery will have will be done between the parent and the surgeon. Even if it does have a minor effect, it's a minor effect that is working to make them look slightly more normal to the other kids. Often times we give people plastic surgery that in the scheme of things still leaves them looking weird (think iraq war veterans) but we're giving them the best we can.

------------

BTW I brought this up with my friend yesterday and she said the difference between a burns victim and a DS child is that with the DS child you're only fixing up their superficial problem and they'll still have the mental problem anyway so it's not going to do much to help. If any of you agree with this, I'd like to know whether you think a child with DS should recieve cosmetic surgery if they are a burns victim.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

BTW I brought this up with my friend yesterday and she said the difference between a burns victim and a DS child is that with the DS child you're only fixing up their superficial problem and they'll still have the mental problem anyway so it's not going to do much to help. If any of you agree with this, I'd like to know whether you think a child with DS should recieve cosmetic surgery if they are a burns victim.

Ok I have a feeling my reply to this will not make any sense but I'll give it a shot.

Changing the physical appearance of a child with DS (by which I mean the facial malformations that come with it), is not something I agree with because it will do nothing to alleviate the problem, which is actually a mental one - it just happens to have a physical manifestation, which by all means you can alter but it doesn't stop the kid from having DS and thus nothing is gained other than a mild superficial improvement, and I say mild because like katie said before, the deformities are really hard to actually fix.

If the DS kid in question got burned, I would agree that surgery would be an option, because the benefits are numerous enough to outweigh any argument about the child's mental capacity. Pain relief, mainly, which I assume is the main motivator behind most reconstructive surgeries of this kind, as well as the fact that, as horrible as it might sound: the kid was born with 'abnormal' physical characteristics that are hard to disguise anyway. If horrible burns are added to that, that's just unfair. They weren't born with it, so why forgo corrective surgery for it? They're only going to look worse than they already did. You may as well try and fix the burns because that'd be easier than restructuring a face and would probably have a better end result.

Does that make sense?

 

[youBROKEmyLIFE]

Changing the physical appearance of a child with DS (by which I mean the facial malformations that come with it), is not something I agree with because it will do nothing to alleviate the problem, which is actually a mental one - it just happens to have a physical manifestation,

I don't see how it matters at all that they'll still have a mental problem to deal with. As I said, if they got burnt they'd still have the mental DS problem to deal with, but I'm sure most people would agree giving them plastic surgery to make them look better would be a humane thing to do.

If the DS kid in question got burned, I would agree that surgery would be an option, because the benefits are numerous enough to outweigh any argument about the child's mental capacity. Pain relief, mainly, which I assume is the main motivator behind most reconstructive surgeries of this kind, as well as the fact that, as horrible as it might sound: the kid was born with 'abnormal' physical characteristics that are hard to disguise anyway. If horrible burns are added to that, that's just unfair. They weren't born with it, so why forgo corrective surgery for it? They're only going to look worse than they already did. You may as well try and fix the burns because that'd be easier than restructuring a face and would probably have a better end result.

Does that make sense?

You're basically saying that because they're born with a physical deformity they have to live with it but if they got burnt you think it's fair enough to make them look better. It seems unfair to me to deny a child the chance to fit in better just because it's more "natural".

The other thing you bring up is the question of how better comsetic surgery could make a ds child look. As I said to boris,

The discussion about what effect the surgery will have will be done between the parent and the surgeon. Even if it does have a minor effect, it's a minor effect that is working to make them look slightly more normal to the other kids. Often times we give people plastic surgery that in the scheme of things still leaves them looking weird (think iraq war veterans) but we're giving them the best we can.

 

[_dhj_]

Ok I have a feeling my reply to this will not make any sense but I'll give it a shot.

Changing the physical appearance of a child with DS (by which I mean the facial malformations that come with it), is not something I agree with because it will do nothing to alleviate the problem, which is actually a mental one - it just happens to have a physical manifestation, which by all means you can alter but it doesn't stop the kid from having DS and thus nothing is gained other than a mild superficial improvement, and I say mild because like katie said before, the deformities are really hard to actually fix.

If the DS kid in question got burned, I would agree that surgery would be an option, because the benefits are numerous enough to outweigh any argument about the child's mental capacity. Pain relief, mainly, which I assume is the main motivator behind most reconstructive surgeries of this kind, as well as the fact that, as horrible as it might sound: the kid was born with 'abnormal' physical characteristics that are hard to disguise anyway. If horrible burns are added to that, that's just unfair. They weren't born with it, so why forgo corrective surgery for it? They're only going to look worse than they already did. You may as well try and fix the burns because that'd be easier than restructuring a face and would probably have a better end result.

Does that make sense?

If a person developed a terminal illness and they can undertake a treatment which won't cure the illness but alleviates some of its symptoms (i.e. pain and suffering), should she be denied that treatment?

Guess I'm just speculating but it seems to me that opposition to plastic surgery in this case derive from the discriminatory notion that people with Down syndrome should "look" a certain way.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

If a person developed a terminal illness and they can undertake a treatment which won't cure the illness but alleviates some of its symptoms (i.e. pain and suffering), should she be denied that treatment?

Guess I'm just speculating but it seems to me that opposition to plastic surgery in this case derive from the discriminatory notion that people with Down syndrome should "look" a certain way.

I think everyone is missing or ignoring the point that a person with DS has nowhere near the mental capacity of someone without it. You cannot expect a five year old child with DS to be able to make a decision for themselves about appearance-altering surgery. A terminal illness is a very different thing. Also, the surgery to alter the physical characteristics of DS is not alleviating the symptoms, they are STILL THERE, the child is still retarded, the child still has limited cognitive functioning. Changing their face changes nothing as far as the disorder is concerned.

 

[youBROKEmyLIFE]

I think everyone is missing or ignoring the point that a person with DS has nowhere near the mental capacity of someone without it. You cannot expect a five year old child with DS to be able to make a decision for themselves about appearance-altering surgery.

No but their parents can. They do have the mental capacity to realise people are picking on them/they look different. Some parents may feel that in looking out for their child they will try to alleviate some of this as best they can. I don't know if I'd personally choose to do it, but I think the condemnation such parents are receiving is pathetic.

Also, the surgery to alter the physical characteristics of DS is not alleviating the symptoms, they are STILL THERE, the child is still retarded, the child still has limited cognitive functioning.

So why bother making a DS child with burns look better? They're still going to be retarded and that is obviously the ONLY important thing.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

No but their parents can. They do have the mental capacity to realise people are picking on them/they look different. Some parents may feel that in looking out for their child they will try to alleviate some of this as best they can. I don't know if I'd personally choose to do it, but I think the condemnation such parents are receiving is pathetic.



So why bother making a DS child with burns look better? They're still going to be retarded and that is obviously the ONLY important thing.

It should be up to the child, and if the child isn't up to making the decision I don't think the parents have that right.

As I said before, fixing the burns of a DS child is different, I'm not going to reiterate that argument.

 

[boris]

No but their parents can. They do have the mental capacity to realise people are picking on them/they look different.

I understand that to a degree that looks can be a factor in a child with Down Syndrome being picked on.

I personally think their mental retardation would be more of a contributing factor than their physical appearance though. Even if to some degree they can alleviate the bullying based on looks, they're not going to be able to do anything about the fact that truthfully, their kid is a lot different to other kids.

Kids are quite astute. They'll overlook the fact this kid looks relatively normal because there will be other things to pick on. I think what is paramount is making the child feel comfortable with the fact they have Down Syndrome rather than trying to change them.

Kids can be cruel, but they're cruel regardless of whether you have an aesthetic abormality.

And as I've said before, and I know there is an issue regarding communication difficulties, but if the child in question can fully understand what is being done to them and why then why isn't the child releasing the statement?


RE: Burns victims, I've got a fairly lengthy reply so give me a second

 

[boris]

It should be up to the child, and if the child isn't up to making the decision I don't think the parents have that right.

As I said before, fixing the burns of a DS child is different, I'm not going to reiterate that argument.

It's hard to form an argument regarding why burns victims are a different case, but I really do think it just comes down to this;
It's completely different

 

[_dhj_]

I think everyone is missing or ignoring the point that a person with DS has nowhere near the mental capacity of someone without it. You cannot expect a five year old child with DS to be able to make a decision for themselves about appearance-altering surgery. A terminal illness is a very different thing. Also, the surgery to alter the physical characteristics of DS is not alleviating the symptoms, they are STILL THERE, the child is still retarded, the child still has limited cognitive functioning. Changing their face changes nothing as far as the disorder is concerned.

The primary element of the terminal illness is the fact that the sufferer's life will prematurely terminate. The pain and suffering, just like the appearance of a child with DS, is the secondary element.

If the child has the capacity to consent, her consent ought to be sought. I gather that your argument is that the child actually does not have the capacity to consent. If this is the case (perhaps our medical expert KFunk can clarify), a decision ought to be made in her best interests. As far as I'm concerned if it gives her a more "normal" appearance, it's in her best interests to proceed with the treatment. An important element that determines one's quality of life is the quality of one's relationships and interactions with others. Whilst having a more "normal" appearance will not improve the chances of her relating with others on an intellectual level, it may improve the chances of others relating with her on an emotional level.

 

[youBROKEmyLIFE]

It should be up to the child, and if the child isn't up to making the decision I don't think the parents have that right.

As I said before, fixing the burns of a DS child is different, I'm not going to reiterate that argument.

You haven't explained the difference (to the point of it being any reasonable defense of your position) and again my point will be that if you're for giving it to a 5 year old burns victim and not a child with DS you need to properly explain why.

I personally think their mental retardation would be more of a contributing factor than their physical appearance though. Even if to some degree they can alleviate the bullying based on looks, they're not going to be able to do anything about the fact that truthfully, their kid is a lot different to other kids.

True but they're parents who are trying to do every little bit to help their kid. TBH even if it doesn't work, you can't claim the parents hearts musn't be in the right place in trying.

They'll overlook the fact this kid looks relatively normal because there will be other things to pick on. I think what is paramount is making the child feel comfortable with the fact they have Down Syndrome rather than trying to change them.

How do you know that's not paramount? I doubt their child will ever understand the complexities of the decision about why their parents got her cosmetic surgery or if she'll ever even know she did.

And as I've said before, and I know there is an issue regarding communication difficulties, but if the child in question can fully understand what is being done to them and why then why isn't the child releasing the statement?

The child can't and probably never will understand it... But they can understand that they're an outcast/less pretty.

 

[youBROKEmyLIFE]

It's hard to form an argument regarding why burns victims are a different case, but I really do think it just comes down to this;
It's completely different

Because you just know eh? I think it could just be your brain being instinctual instead of critical that leads you to this conclusion.

 

[boris]

True but they're parents who are trying to do every little bit to help their kid. TBH even if it doesn't work, you can't claim the parents hearts musn't be in the right place in trying.

You can't blame them. But I still feel that it's intrinsically wrong. I know they're doing it based on a perceived future threat towards their daughters emotional well being, but a part of me also cant help but think they've got their own motives.

Re: Down syndrome girl has cosmetic surgery
Quote:
Originally Posted by ^CoSMic DoRiS^^
It should be up to the child, and if the child isn't up to making the decision I don't think the parents have that right.

As I said before, fixing the burns of a DS child is different, I'm not going to reiterate that argument.

You haven't explained the difference (to the point of it being any reasonable defense of your position) and again my point will be that if you're for giving it to a 5 year old burns victim and not a child with DS you need to properly explain why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boris
I personally think their mental retardation would be more of a contributing factor than their physical appearance though. Even if to some degree they can alleviate the bullying based on looks, they're not going to be able to do anything about the fact that truthfully, their kid is a lot different to other kids.

True but they're parents who are trying to do every little bit to help their kid. TBH even if it doesn't work, you can't claim the parents hearts musn't be in the right place in trying.

Quote:
They'll overlook the fact this kid looks relatively normal because there will be other things to pick on. I think what is paramount is making the child feel comfortable with the fact they have Down Syndrome rather than trying to change them.

How do you know that's not paramount? I doubt their child will ever understand the complexities of the decision about why their parents got her cosmetic surgery or if she'll ever even know she did.

If it were me I would be focusing on helping the child deal with it, atleast until early adolescence, and then I would propose the option of surgery. Atleast then I think they'd be better equipped mentally to understand what they've got, what its implications are and how the surgery could possibly help. Even if it's on a basic level.

The child can't and probably never will understand it... But they can understand that they're an outcast/less pretty.

My concern would be the unrealistic expectations the child may have from such a minor procedure. For arguments sake, lets say on a limited level the child understands they're different. How do you explain to the child that they're going to have surgery to make them look more normal without giving them the unrealistic expectation that it's going to alleviate any future bullying based on looks?