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Flat Tax Rate. (2 Viewers)

Do you support a Flat tax rate?

  • No

    Votes: 29 70.7%
  • Yes

    Votes: 3 7.3%
  • Yes - With some concessions.

    Votes: 9 22.0%

  • Total voters
    41
S

Shuter

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Not-That-Bright said:
Which would explain why katie_tully's 300,000 a year grandfather didn't work very hard... he could of worked his ass off and got very little for his work.
That's right, even though he was earning heaps, he still could of earned more, except it takes him twice as long to earn any eaxtra dollars.

He probably would of worked to buy a massive yatch, if it say was going to take him 100 hours to pay for... but if it takes him almost 200 hours work to earn... well the yatch probably isn't worth it.

Progressive tax systems are scewing the ditribution of resources in our economy.
 

Not-That-Bright

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I also keep hearing BS about how disadvantaged the poorest in the country would be...
Most flat tax systems would have a cut off (say, 20,000 a year) where they would pay NO Tax... Would this hurt revenues? yes. But how much money should you take from the poorest in society anyway? (none!)
 

mr_shittles

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Not-That-Bright said:
I also keep hearing BS about how disadvantaged the poorest in the country would be...
Most flat tax systems would have a cut off (say, 20,000 a year) where they would pay NO Tax... Would this hurt revenues? yes. But how much money should you take from the poorest in society anyway? (none!)
Just a quick explanation of the difference between a flat tax system and a progressive tax system.

A flat tax system has a proportional rate of tax regardless of income, say 30% for every dollar earned. So you pay 30% whether your income is $1 or $1m.

A progressive tax system is where the average rate of tax rises as you earn more income (ie. the system is composed of two or more brackets and the marginal rate of tax increases as the income bracket increases). An example of such a system would be 0% for the first $20K and 30% for every dollar thereafter.

So the tax system that you have just described is not, in fact, a "flat" tax system.
 

mr_shittles

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Shuter said:
No growth does NOT equal inflation if it is matched by REAL increases in productivity (as the incentive to work harder would).
That's true. But there is no guarantee that real increases in productivity will be sufficient enough to control the inflationary impact.
 
S

Shuter

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mr_shittles said:
That's true. But there is no guarantee that real increases in productivity will be sufficient enough to control the inflationary impact.
What inflationary impact though, what are the additional inflationary pressures which would be created by such a tax scheme?
 

Not-That-Bright

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mr_shittles said:
Just a quick explanation of the difference between a flat tax system and a progressive tax system.

A flat tax system has a proportional rate of tax regardless of income, say 30% for every dollar earned. So you pay 30% whether your income is $1 or $1m.

A progressive tax system is where the average rate of tax rises as you earn more income (ie. the system is composed of two or more brackets and the marginal rate of tax increases as the income bracket increases). An example of such a system would be 0% for the first $20K and 30% for every dollar thereafter.

So the tax system that you have just described is not, in fact, a "flat" tax system.
It is a flat tax system for all above $20,000 smartass :rolleyes:
 

mr_shittles

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Not-That-Bright said:
It is a flat tax system for all above $20,000 smartass :rolleyes:
I'm not trying to be a smartarse in anyway, but your response is not correct either. It is NOT a flat tax syastem for all above $20,000.

Think about it carefully.
 

mr_shittles

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Shuter said:
What inflationary impact though, what are the additional inflationary pressures which would be created by such a tax scheme?
When the scheme is introduced, there will be greater diposable income. Having more money in your pocket usually results in greater demand for goods. And that's when the inflationary pressures come into play.
 

mr_shittles

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Not-That-Bright said:
ok.. so it's not a TOTAL flat tax, it's just a MUCH FLATTER system then we currently have.
Glad you thought about it carefully. It's not a case of "total flat tax", or "half flat tax", or whatever other name you want to make up, it is definitely NOT a flat tax(as you claimed).

Next time you call someone a smartarse, make sure that they are actually being a smartarse and not just raising a valid point.
 

Rorix

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Oooh goodie an economics thread

Summary of thread so far:
NTB: Hay guys anyone want to talk about this proposal?
Rest of forum: I dunno, should we?
Xayma: I'll give my opinion
NTB (realising thread so far sucks) : post links
absolution: OMG READ ABOUT SOMETHING I AM IGNORANT OF? NO WAY
Vahl3: my normative 'logic' says you're wrong.
absolution: HI CAN I GIVE MY DUMBASS OPINION? HI YOU'RE A DUMBASS RBA INFLATION WTF LOLOLOL [did I mention I do HSC economics:)]
Vahl3, NTB: continue to converse on normative issues
absolution: omg did u do HSC economics lolol
rest of forum: joins vahl3, NTB discussion
absolution: continues to rant and rave about being sonned by NTB over and over again


absolution this just isnt your thread=-(


One thing stood out when reading the thread (along with the abundance of stupid absolution posts which I will in general ignore unless absolution feels the need for the stupidity in his/her posts to be highlighted where it has not already been done):

Vahl3 said:
There is no justification for inequality
Woah. No-one has questioned this statement in the entire thread?
 
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Not-That-Bright

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Absolution's a guy that got a high uai and is doing commerce (HE DID HSC ECONOMICS!).. come on man he has to know everything there is to know about any possible economic policy.

I figured he was talking about inequality as in.. everyone should have the same POSSIBILITIES etc,
which i support.
But if he is saying everyone should be equal (equal ammount of money, assets etc) no matter what they do, he's wrong.
 

Rorix

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To get onto what I was saying there in a different post so the tl;dr crowd read the old one, Vahl3: I'm gonna slap you over the head with my copy of A Theory Of Justice.

BAM! http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/12.05/photos/03-rawls-225.jpg TO THE DOME


Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy said:
One of the simplest principles of distributive justice is that of strict or radical equality. The principle says that every person should have the same level of material goods and services. The principle is most commonly justified on the grounds that people are owed equal respect and that equality in material goods and services is the best way to give effect to this ideal.
Even with this ostensibly simple principle some of the difficult specification problems of distributive principles can be seen. The two main problems are the construction of appropriate indices for measurement (the index problem), and the specification of time frames. Because there are numerous proposed solutions to these problems, the ‘principle of strict equality’ is not a single principle but a name for a group of closely related principles. This range of possible specifications occurs with all the common principles of distributive justice.

The index problem arises primarily because the goods to be distributed need to be measured if they are going to be distributed according to some pattern (such as equality). The strict equality principle stated above says that there should be ‘the same level of material goods and services’. The problem is how to specify and measure levels. One way of solving the index problem in the strict equality case is to specify that everyone should have the same bundle of material goods and services rather than the same level (so everyone would have 4 oranges, 6 apples, 1 bike, etc.). The main problem with this solution is that there will be many other allocations of material goods and services which will make some people better off without making anybody else worse off. For instance, a person preferring apples to oranges will be better off if she swaps some of the oranges from her bundle for some of the apples belonging to a person preferring oranges to apples. Indeed, it is likely that everybody will have something they would wish to trade in order to make themselves better off. As a consequence, requiring identical bundles will make virtually everybody materially worse off than they would be under an alternative allocation. So specifying that everybody must have the same bundle of goods does not seem to be a satisfactory way of solving the index problem. Some index for measuring the value of goods and services is required.

Money is an index for the value of material goods and services. It is an imperfect index and its pitfalls are well-documented in most economics textbooks. Moreover, once the goods to be allocated are extended beyond material ones to include opportunities, etc. it needs to be combined with other indices. (For instance, John Rawls' index of primary goods - see Rawls 1971.) Nevertheless, using money as index for the value of material goods and services is the most practical response so far suggested to the index problem and is widely used in the specification and implementation of distributive principles.

The second main specification problem involves time frames. Many distributive principles identify and require that a particular pattern of distribution be achieved. But they also need to specify when the pattern is required. One version of the principle of strict equality requires that all people should have the same wealth at some initial point, after which people are free to use their wealth in whatever way they choose. Principles specifying initial distributions after which the pattern need not be preserved are commonly called ‘starting-gate’ principles. (See Ackerman 1980, 53-59,168-170,180-186)

Because ‘starting-gate’ forms of the strict equality principle may lead in time to very inegalitarian wealth distributions they are not common. The most common form of strict equality principle specifies that income (measured in terms of money) should be equal in each time-frame, though even this may lead to significant disparities in wealth if variations in savings are permitted. Hence, strict equality principles are commonly conjoined with some society-wide specification of just saving behavior.

There are a number of direct moral criticisms made of strict equality principles: that they unduly restrict freedom, that they do not give best effect to equal respect for persons, that they conflict with what people deserve, etc. (see Desert-Based Principles) But the most common criticism is a welfare-based one: that everyone can be materially better off if incomes are not strictly equal. (see Carens) It is this fact which partly inspired the Difference Principle.
and there's more...
 

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Not-That-Bright said:
Absolution's a guy that got a high uai and is doing commerce (HE DID HSC ECONOMICS!).. come on man he has to know everything there is to know about any possible economic policy.


hay NTB whats up :cool:
i'm here to help you fight against the onslaught of stupid:) althought I can't say that I'm in favour of a basic flat tax system, something more like milton friedman's NIT policy would be more appropriate with reform in other tax areas (sales etc.)
hrmmm, milton friedman........that guys name sounds familiar


I wonder if he did HSC economics?

I figured he was talking about inequality as in.. everyone should have the same POSSIBILITIES etc,
which i support.
But if he is saying everyone should be equal (equal ammount of money, assets etc) no matter what they do, he's wrong.
Even if he does then the statement is almost meaningless in the sense that it is impossible to legislate for and structure society towards for reasons generally outlined in my stanford quote - namely to do with the varying nature of oppertunity for people.

Plus, I object to the simplication of life down to a certain number of possibilities which you are granted and having life turn into a dice game. Life isn't fair, and that's great news, since it means through your own effort you can improve your position. I have a feeling that this is what you meant when you said equal possibilties, so this was just precursory arguments for anyone who would uphold the statement as it stands - it needs rewording to something like 'everyone should at some point had at least an opportunity to become more successful and unlock future positive opportunities.' I have a feeling I'm spelling opportunity wrong but I'm busy working out if it is 1:43AM, as my computer clock tells me, or 2:43AM, as it feels.
 
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Not-That-Bright

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Im doing some woolley readings because i'm incredibly lazy and work best at like 2am...
I'm not sure if I support a flat tax ( I mainly just felt I had to take up the act of someone supporting it in order to quell some of the attacks on it ).
I do however support flattening the taxation system.

I'm waiting truely for a communist to join this thread.
 

Rorix

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Ah, I've done the 'post a controversal thread to start an argument and make fun of knee jerk reactions' thread before, but someone has always worked out what the thread's about early enough to spoil the fun. =(
 
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Shuter

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mr_shittles said:
When the scheme is introduced, there will be greater diposable income. Having more money in your pocket usually results in greater demand for goods. And that's when the inflationary pressures come into play.
I would have to disagree as to the extent, it wouldn't be that great as you are only moving the spending from what may be government into consumer sector spending then. In addition while the higher income people's income may increase, the lower income people's would slightly decrease which would create a decrease in their demand.

Again we're slightly mixing arguements here. A flat tax does NOT mean the government will receive LESS tax, it just means it will receive it in different proportions from different people than it currently does.
 
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Xayma

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Shuter said:
I would have to disagree as to the extent, it wouldn't be that great as you are only moving the spending from what may be government into consumer sector spending then. In addition while the higher income people's income may increase, the lower income people's would slightly decrease which would create a decrease in their demand.

Again we're slightly mixing arguements here. A flat tax does NOT mean the government will receive LESS tax, it just means it will receive it in different proportions from different people than it currently does.
The income of the lower people wouldn't decrease, at least not at a 30% tax rate.

At least not at $20 000 start. Currently those earning $21 600 pay $2652 in tax. With the income between that and $52 000 being charged at 30%.

This means that no one would be "worse off" under the flat tax system. NTB: I'm assuming that a flat tax system wouldn't have a medicare levy? Or GST?

Personally I would like to see the 42% tax bracket expanded upwards (only $10 000 dollar range between 30% and 47%).

NTB: I normally don't argue others positions on BOS, but it is fun in real life :p BOS has a wide enough range of communists, to greenies.

But can we not simply the tax act for at least 10 more years :p I need my Dad to have a job so I can get supported ;) (ahh the fun of living off grey areas)
 
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Asquithian said:
Yeah I read that. It's not my job to go nuts on that. I'm not here to enforce correct notions onto people from my side. That's your job.

I know the statement is faulty and that inequality is what makes the world go round and that the only thing that can save the ultra poor or disadvantaged is to be exploited (to an extent).

But I'll let it fly because its your job to check that kind of comment. My job is the check less worldly remarks of the right. While yours is to check the less worldly remarks of the left.

But it's TRUE that people who aren't Christians of European decent, live in a nuclear family in a modest but plucky home with a white picket fence aren't Australian!!!!!!!!!!!
 

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