Halp on Atar bruz (1 Viewer)

Frostbitten

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In a situation where there is a >400 ranked school and in throughout several course the top 3 people lets say 'x', 'y' and 'z'are pretty close in the internal assessment, say 92,89,87 respectively, and then the rest of the class is 77-60. If 'x' gets 93, 'y' gets 90 and 'z' gets 89 in externals, will the atar of 'x', 'y' and 'z' be corresponding in nature? Or will 2nd and 3rd be dragged down heaps by the rest of the class? I guess what I am saying is does the margin between 1st and 2nd, 2nd and 3rd get taken into consideration or does BoS just say fuck you and thus you get destroyed by your peers. It would seem unfair if they did the latter...
 

btx3

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Margin gets taken into consideration, don't worry bruvs
 

SunnyScience

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1. I'm pretty sure outliers are excluded from the moderation in some kind of way. (both for the extreme top and extreme bottom) - (someone confirm this)
2. x y and z's atar will only be pretty much the same if they score pretty much the same marks in their top 10 units when their ATAR is calculated by UAC.
 

brent012

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Relative gaps between the ranks matters more than the actual ranks. It still is good to be ranked first as you never know how your peers (or yourself) will actually perform on the day of the HSC exam.
 

Frostbitten

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1. I'm pretty sure outliers are excluded from the moderation in some kind of way. (both for the extreme top and extreme bottom) - (someone confirm this)
2. x y and z's atar will only be pretty much the same if they score pretty much the same marks in their top 10 units when their ATAR is calculated by UAC.
Do you think overall it would be safe to say getting fairly close to 1st ranked person will mean you won't really get affected by your rank, even in a >400 ranked school?
 

D94

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Do you think overall it would be safe to say getting fairly close to 1st ranked person will mean you won't really get affected by your rank, even in a >400 ranked school?
Your rank isn't considered in the calculations unless you are first or last. What is considered is the difference/gaps in marks between each rank relative to the overall distribution of students' marks. So whilst coming 2nd might be great, that has no meaning - coming second by 2% puts you in a better position than coming second by 20%. Whether this is transposed into a large HSC mark separation will depend on how you and your cohort perform in the HSC exams.

Essentially, you want as many raw school marks as possible (so by extension, be as close to first as possible), and do as well as possible in the HSC exams.
 

OMGITzJustin

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just aim for rank 1 in a crapper school...
I was rank 2 in 4 subjects, but the ones that got moderated down were mx1 and phys. I close to rank 1 in mx1 and phys, and the gap from 2-3 was a similar gap, so when I scored close to rank 1 in the actual hsc, my assessment mark got moderated down because the rank 3 person did sht on both occasions (even though their gap was close to mine because they were good in school work)

So in these 2 subjects,
Phys: First was 87/87
Me was 86/83
MX1: First was 92/92
Me was 91/87

edit: for english i was moderated up 86/89, chem was same 88/88 and mx2 was same on 85
 
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DAFUQ

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I was ranked 2nd in 4u maths and behind 1st by 0.5%.

I got the highest external with 98 but got an internal of 95 because the cohort did quite bad in the hsc exam.

So to answer your question, yes, the system can be quite unfair.
 

Frostbitten

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I was ranked 2nd in 4u maths and behind 1st by 0.5%.

I got the highest external with 98 but got an internal of 95 because the cohort did quite bad in the hsc exam.

So to answer your question, yes, the system can be quite unfair.
So really, the system only accommodates the <(200-150) schools?
 

deswa1

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I was ranked 2nd in 4u maths and behind 1st by 0.5%.

I got the highest external with 98 but got an internal of 95 because the cohort did quite bad in the hsc exam.

So to answer your question, yes, the system can be quite unfair.
Pretty sure that can't be right. I was =3rd at school in 4U and 2% off first. The top 4U mark was 98 and my assessment was 97. 4U aligns VERY favourably, I doubt you drop 3 marks if you're second by 0.5%- the only way that's possible I would think is if the next highest mark was like mid 80's and then you have to challenge how you got 98 externally and still didn't rank first if you're up against those people...

The system is designed to be fair- if you're close to someone in ability, you'll get close to them in school marks and you'll perform similarly in HSC on the balance of probability
 

D94

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I was ranked 2nd in 4u maths and behind 1st by 0.5%.

I got the highest external with 98 but got an internal of 95 because the cohort did quite bad in the hsc exam.

So to answer your question, yes, the system can be quite unfair.
It is fair. At school, you were probably reasonably close to each other. In the exam, the tail did quite bad and stretch a seemingly close cohort, which affected your mark. Whilst you may blame the system, it is really your school's assessment and your cohort which are at "fault", if any can be given. If you got the highest HSC exam mark, you should have really came first at school. The assessments may have been too easy or not effective enough to clearly distinguish you from the student ranked 1. They may have been too easy in that the majority of the cohort were reasonably close to you and their marks were reasonably spread out.

This isn't unfair because the process of moderation reflects your performance relative to the state. Your school mark, where you were 0.5% behind first place, is your performance relative to your cohort. Essentially, if you were able to achieve 98, and the rest of your cohort did average, then it shows your school assessments were far too easy or not effective enough. (or the other case is that the information you have about your marks and others are inaccurate)

Your situation is nothing like the OP, from the limited information you have given and know.


So really, the system only accommodates the <(200-150) schools?
No... forget about these rankings. They aren't official. The have no bearing on your marks. The system is designed to determine your marks which are relative to your cohort and transpose that to marks which are relative to the state. It works reasonably well, and the logic is fair for students as a whole.

BOS doesn't think, "oh, you're in a 400's ranked school, so let's give you shit marks". No, they don't do that. If everyone in your cohort achieved HSC exam marks ranging from 99 down to 90, then ALL moderated assessment marks will range from 99 down to 90. They pin the highest and lowest exam marks, and those marks will generally be the moderated assessment marks of the first and last ranked students. Then the marks are determined by a process of moderation whereby essentially, the more raw schools marks you have, the closer you are to first. They don't go by rank. BOS compares the mean of your school marks with the mean of the exam marks, and adjusts it accordingly such that they accurately reflect your school performance as if you had sat the exact same school assessments as everyone else. That is the idea of moderation. No where does your overall school rank (even though they are inaccurate) come into consideration nor does your individual rank, except if you are first or last.
 

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