HARRY POTTER & THE HBP - what did you think? (SPOILERS!) (1 Viewer)

[arooshika...]

This is awesome

sorry but i dont get that

 

[Lundy]

He's the guy who plays Cedric in the new movie. Making weird faces. There's nothing else to get.

 

[arooshika...]

He's the guy who plays Cedric in the new movie. Making weird faces. There's nothing else to get.

oh ok..thanks, never knew that

 

[Captain Gh3y]

He's the guy who plays Cedric in the new movie. Making weird faces. There's nothing else to get.

Except the mentality of crazed fangirls. That's something no one will ever 'get'.

 

[PaleReflection]

Except the mentality of crazed fangirls. That's something no one will ever 'get'.

You only wish you could be a fangirl.

 

[The_highwayman]

Ah but they were all destroyed in the battle of the Department of Mysteries!

They're Wizards/Witches! they can make new ones!

 

[Captain Gh3y]

You only wish you could be a fangirl.

Why would I want to be like you?

On topic: Snape kills Dumbledore.

 

[jeremiahk]

Snape is one bad mother fucker, just like Samuel L J.

Oh he's bad.

Snape was right though at the beginning, Harry does have skilled friends, and he is lucky alot of the time. But its just a story, and thats how it goes.

 

[The_highwayman]

i still dont think snape is evil. The only thing that stops me from believing that dumbledore isnt dead is the portrait. Everything else points to him still being alive if u interpret it the right way (for more information: www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com) i hate having to wait for the next book!

 

[PaleReflection]

Dumbledore is definitely dead.

Why don't you think Snape is evil?

 

[The_highwayman]

Did u look at the website?
Anyway, here is a quoted section of evidence...

1. Snape Lies to Narcissa and Bellatrix... Twice

During the meeting that Snape has at his house with Narcissa and Bellatrix in chapter 2, Snape tries to explain to them why he never killed Harry all those years at Hogwarts when he had ample opportunity:

"Of course, it became apparent to me very quickly that he had no extraordinary talent at all. He has fought his way out of a number of tight corners by a simple combination of sheer luck and more talented friends. He is mediocre to the last degree..." (HBP pg 31/36)

But we know Snape knows this is a lie. We know Snape knows that Harry is a powerful wizard. We know he knows Harry is a parselmouth. We know he knows Harry could conjure a corporeal patronus when he was just 13 years old. We know he knows Harry has stood up to and prevailed against Voldemort five times!

But not even one whole page later, Narcissa is crying to Snape she has something she wants to say, but has been forbidden to talk about by Voldemort. Snape immediately replies that she should follow Voldemort's orders, and sister Bellatrix agrees. But Snape appears troubled by the conversation:

But Snape had gotten to his feet and strode to the small window, peered through the curtains, and then closed them again with a jerk. He turned around to face Narcissa, frowning. (HBP pg 32/37)

What happened to make him jerk the curtains closed all of a sudden and turn back to the women, frowning? Has he had a revelation?

It is only at this point that he confides in them that he already knows the plan, that Voldemort has already told him. He's lying again!

If he already knew the plan, why would he have taken the position, just one moment earlier, that she should follow Voldemort's law and not speak of it?

We know Snape is a powerful Legilimens, we learned that in the Occlumency scenes with Snape and Harry in Order of the Phoenix. Just in case we forgot about Legilimency, J.K. mentioned it just a few pages ago. Questioning Voldemort's trust in Snape, Snape interrupts:

"You think he is mistaken? Or that I somehow hoodwinked him? Fool the Dark Lord, the greatest wizard, the most accomplished Legilimens the world has ever seen?" (HBP pg 26/31)

Having just been on the verge of spilling the beans to Snape, Draco's assignment must have been top-most in Narcissa's thoughts, and in the quiet moment at the window, Snape saw it in her mind. He then lies to them about already knowing the plan, to gain their trust.

So, at the same time that Snape is trying to convince Narcissa and Bellatrix that he's worthy of Voldemort's trust, we can see he is lying to them, several times. That can only mean that Snape isn't as loyal to Voldemort as he'd like Bellatrix and Narcissa (and us!) to believe.

2. What Hagrid Overheard

Harry is talking to Hagrid after the poisoning of Ron, and Hagrid lets it slip that he overheard something he shouldn't have:

I was comin' outta the forest the other evenin' an' I overheard 'em talking -- well, arguin'. ... I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he -- Snape -- didn' wan' ter do it anymore ... Dumbledore told him flat out he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it." (HBP pg 405/380)

This clue comes right out and tells us that Snape is following the orders of Dumbledore, although we now see whatever Snape has promised to do for Dumbledore is difficult or unpleasant.

We also now have comfirmation that Dumbledore has a plan, which involves Snape, and Dumbleore is confident that the plan that Snape has agreed to will proceed.

3. No DADA Teacher Has Lasted More Than 1 Year

For every Hogwarts year that is documented in the Harry Potter books so far, it stands out prominently that there has been a different Defense Against The Dark Arts teacher each year.

They even joked about it at the beginning of the previous book, when the kids are looking over their just arrived book lists for the year, and they're wondering who assigned the Slinkhard book, as it meant Dumbledore had found a new DADA teacher:

Fred told Harry ... "Dumbledore was having real trouble finding anyone to do the job this year." "Not surprising, is it, when you look at what's happened to the last four?" said George. "One sacked, one dead, one's memory erased, and one locked in a trunk for nine months," said Harry, counting them off on his fingers. "Yeah, I see what you mean." (OotP pg 161/146)

And in Half-Blood Prince, Harry, Ron and Hermione talk about this again when they are surprised at the sorting feast that Snape will be DADA teacher that year:

"Well, there's one good thing," [Harry] said savagely. "Snape'll be gone by the end of the year." "What do you mean?" asked Ron. "That job's jinxed. No one's lasted more than a year...Quirell actually died doing it..." (HBP pg 167/159)

Ironically, it turns out, Harry was literally right. When Tom Riddle returned after a ten year absence to again request to be a teacher at Hogwarts, Dumbledore rejected him, and upon Harry's questioning, Dumbledore gave us some important insight into the Hogwarts DADA teacher situation:

"Was he after the Defense Against the Dark Arts job again, sir? He didn't say..." "Oh, he definitely wanted the Defense Against the Dark Arts job," said Dumbledore. "The aftermath of our little meeting proved that. You see, we have never been able to keep a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher for longer than a year since I refused the post to Lord Voldemort." (HBP pg 446/418)

So, Dumbledore himself is admitting he knows that Voldemort cursed the DADA teacher job. This means he knew about the curse when he assigned Snape to the job this year. But he never intended Snape to be in the job for longer than a year to begin with, as his plan for Snape to kill him and flee at the end of the year must have already been in place.

4. Don't Judge A Book By Its Cover

When Snape comes into the bathroom after being alerted by Moaning Myrtle, he knows instanly that the Sectumsempra curse was used to injure Draco, because he goes right to work on him using the proper countercurse to reverse the damage. He then takes Draco to the hospital wing, ordering Harry to wait for him there.

When Snape returns, he asks Harry where he learned the curse, and Harry says he saw it in a book in the library. Snape puts his Legilimency to work again:

"Liar," said Snape. Harry's throat went dry. He knew what Snape was going to do and he had never been able to prevent it... The bathroom seemed to shimmer before his eyes; he struggled to block out all thought, but try as he might, the Half-Blood Prince's copy of Advanced Potion Making swam hazily to the fore-front of his mind. (HBP pg 524/490)

Snape then demands Harry bring him his books, Harry makes a detour and hides the book in the room of requirement, bringing Snape Ron's copy of the book instead.

Snape must know Harry's trying to pull a fast one on him, he knows Harry has the book, he saw it in his mind. But instead of pressing the point, Snape just gives him a dozen detentions.

Why would Snape do this if he wasn't still working for Dumbledore? He lost his temper with Harry when he demanded Harry bring him the book, but then even though Harry lies to him about it, Snape remembers who's side he's on, and backs off.

5. Severus... Please...

If you believe that Snape is acting on Dumbledore's orders to kill him (or possibly just make it look like he killed him, although he'd probably still be hurting him), then Snape's demeanor and Dumbledore's final words take on a whole new meaning.

...somebody else had spoken Snape's name, quite softly. "Severus..." The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading. Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out of the way. ... Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. "Severus... Please..." (HBP pg 595/556)

In that passage the reader is supposed to believe that Snape hates Dumbledore and feels revulsion for him.

But to help us understand the real meaning of Snape's feelings of revulsion and hatred, J.K. used almost the exact same words for what Harry was feeling just one chapter previous:

"You...you can't stop, Professor," said Harry. "You've got to keep drinking, remember? You told me you had to keep drinking. Here..." Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back toward Dumbledore's mouth ... (HBP pg 571/534)

Even though Snape was to kill Dumbledore on Dumbledore's orders, it must have been something that was still really emotional and difficult for Snape to do, exactly as it was for Harry to make Dumbledore drink the potion.

The feeling of revulsion on Snape's face was not for Dumbledore, but the act he knew he had to commit. The hatred was not for Dumbledore, but for what Dumbledore was making him do.

And when Dumbledore said, "Severus... Please..." he wasn't begging "please don't". What he was really saying was, "Severus, please kill me, as you promised you would."

Way back at the end the first book, when Dumbledore confirms for Harry that Flamel would die now that the philosopher's stone was gone, Dumbledore explained:

"To one as young as you, I'm sure it seems incredible, but to Nicolas and Perenelle, it really is like going to bed after a very, very long day. After all, to the well-organised mind, death is but the next great adventure." (SS/PS pg 297/215)

Does that sound to you like someone who would beg to save his own life?

 

[Riviet]

Haha, you could write an essay with all that.

 

[Lundy]

I've never bought Snape's evilness. He's soooo NOT evil. I'll eat my hat if it turns out he is.

 

[The_highwayman]

is it a nice hat?

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Did u look at the website?

I hope you know what you've just unleashed on this thread.

 

[PaleReflection]

There are a couple of weak spots in that, but I really liked this

So, Dumbledore himself is admitting he knows that Voldemort cursed the DADA teacher job. This means he knew about the curse when he assigned Snape to the job this year. But he never intended Snape to be in the job for longer than a year to begin with, as his plan for Snape to kill him and flee at the end of the year must have already been in place.

I've never thought about that before; I still haven't decided whether I think Snape is evil, but to think htat Dumbledore assigned Snape as DADA teacher knowing the position was cursed, makes me think that Dumbledore definitely knew about the Unbreakable Vow. However, it could also mean that Dumbledore's plan involved Snape going deeper into Voldie's inner circle at the end of the year, and that when Hagrid "jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he -- Snape -- didn' wan' ter do it anymore ... Dumbledore told him flat out he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it," that maybe Snape was protesting about that.

In that passage the reader is supposed to believe that Snape hates Dumbledore and feels revulsion for him.

But to help us understand the real meaning of Snape's feelings of revulsion and hatred, J.K. used almost the exact same words for what Harry was feeling just one chapter previous:

"You...you can't stop, Professor," said Harry. "You've got to keep drinking, remember? You told me you had to keep drinking. Here..." Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back toward Dumbledore's mouth ... (HBP pg 571/534)

Even though Snape was to kill Dumbledore on Dumbledore's orders, it must have been something that was still really emotional and difficult for Snape to do, exactly as it was for Harry to make Dumbledore drink the potion.

The feeling of revulsion on Snape's face was not for Dumbledore, but the act he knew he had to commit. The hatred was not for Dumbledore, but for what Dumbledore was making him do.

And when Dumbledore said, "Severus... Please..." he wasn't begging "please don't". What he was really saying was, "Severus, please kill me, as you promised you would."

I read that theory as soon as I got on livejournal after I finished the book, that Dumbledore wasn't pleading for his life, but pleading for Snape to go through with their plan. I really like how they make a parallel between Snape's facial expression and what Harry said a chapter before. Maybe JK was intentionally foreshadowing there?


As for why Snape is evil, I've read a number of interesting essays on livejournal. This one deals mainly with Snape's actions at the end of OotP, and his delay in informing the Order that the Golden Trio and friends were missing.

PART 1
1. Snape is aware something’s going on, as Harry gives him the cryptic message. 8:35 PM
2. Snape leaves, Hermione tricks Umbridge to leave. 8:50 PM
3. Walk to the Frb. For. and meeting Centaurs. 9:15 PM
4. Escaping the Centaurs. 9:35 PM
5. till meeting the rest of the gang, 9:45
6. Finding the Thestrals, about to fly away. 10:00 (sunset in Edinburgh)

PART 2
1. The Order members arrive. 3:20 AM
2. Everything’s happening really fast now. Sirius is killed. 3:50 AM
3. Harry’s shocked. 3:57 AM
4. Harry chases Bella. 4:07 AM
5. They chat, they fight, an chat some more. Tom arrives. 4:15 AM
6. Dumbledore and Tom fight. 4:25 AM
7. Fudge comes. He stutters. Harry goes back to Hogwarts. 4:35 AM

Fact #1: Snape knows Voldemort is sending visions to Harry
Fact #2: Snape knows Voldemort sent Harry one final vision (8:35 PM)
Fact #3: Snape checks if Sirius is alive (time unknown)
Fact #4: Snape never told Harry Sirius is alive.
Possibility: Snape knows Harry believes Sirius is captured.
Speculation: Snape is told to stay back (by Tom), if something should happen.
Fact #5: Snape is aware Harry went into the FF with Umbridge. (8:50-9:55)
*according to DD, Snape grew worried when Harry didn't come back, and alerted the Order. (time unknown).
Fact #6: According to DD, Tonks, Kingsley, Mad-Eye, Lupin and Sirius are home when Snape calls, and they RUSH to Harry's help.

That in my book means they apperated like crazy. Both Harry and the Prophecy are extremely important. Then there is Sirius and Remus, who wouldn't wait one second.
Speculation: in 5 mins they were out of the house, apperation to somewhere near the phone box took a few seconds, another 5 to reach to battle field (they most likely knew the place. Two Aurors, one ex-Auror, all but Sirius having made patrol duty there, and they had the plans of the place. So they meet Harry & co. at 3:20 AM. Which means Snape alerted the Order at at about 3:00 AM.

So between 8:50 PM and and 3:00 AM, a total of 6 hours, Snape did not think to alert the Order. Give me 2 hours of margin of error, that's still 4 hours. Snape guessed Harry and co. were headed for the MoM (according to DD), so 4 hours of waiting is a bit long for alerting the Order when two of he Order's top priorities is in peril. Just saying...

The rest of the comments are pretty interesting too, there's a lot of debate between Good!Snape and Evil!Snape fans.

There are many more essays, if you can be bothered to read them (I usually only skim them, heaps are super long)
Structural considerations in the 'Is Snape Evil?' debate

The Reason Dumbledore Trusts Severus Snape (this one's rly good)

Who else but Severus Snape

(The whole list is here )

When Melissa from The Leaky Cauldron and Emerson from Mugglenet interviewed JKR after the HBP release, Melissa asked her about Snape's evilness

MA: OK, big big big book six question. Is Snape evil?

JKR: [Almost laughing] Well, you've read the book, what do you think?

ES: She's trying to make you say it categorically.

MA: Well, there are conspiracy theorists, and there are people who will claim -

JKR: Cling to some desperate hope [laughter] -

ES: Yes!

MA: Yes!

ES: Like certain shippers we know!

[All laugh]

JKR: Well, okay, I'm obviously – Harry-Snape is now as personal, if not more so, than Harry-Voldemort. I can't answer that question because it's a spoiler, isn't it, whatever I say, and obviously, it has such a huge impact on what will happen when they meet again that I can't. And let's face it, it's going to launch 10,000 theories and I'm going to get a big kick out of reading them so [laughs] I'm evil but I just like the theories, I love the theories.

"Cling to some desperate hope" made me think she was kind of hinting at him being evil, but who knows what she's gonna pull in book 7.

 

[The_highwayman]

The Reason Dumbledore Trusts Severus Snape (this one's rly good)

I read this one (not the others) and you're right, it is really good. Very interesting and highly plausible.

 

[klh]

oh thank you so much....i love reading! thansk for the links PaleReflection and TheHighwayMan!

 

[The_highwayman]

Well, if u like reading try this
It is a huge list of quotes that are analysed to show that snape isnt evil

 

[hyperbole]

Has anyone ever considered that perhaps Harry is a horcrux?