Hezbollah's Victory (2 Viewers)

[ZabZu]

your a pathetic little joke. your of white European descent yet consider yourself middle eastern........and then pretend you were in Israel for trillion of centuries and your a native blah blah blah, just like the rest of you fucking Zionist scums. hope you rot in shit. ....and then let me shit on you.

Jews were expelled from Israel by the Romans, at around 100AD. They were only allowed to return in decent numbers during British rule after WW1.

Jews could have established a country in another part of the world where they could live in peace. They have chosen to live in the Middle East and as a result Israelis have fought many wars and each day they go through extreme security procedures.

Heres some things Israelis go through:
- Men have to serve 3 years in the army, women spend 2 years in the army or national service (very religious people are exempt from the army)
-They get scanned by a guy with metal detector at the entrance of a shopping centre
- People on organised tours have a guard going with them
- People who park their car in shopping centre car park get their car searched.

The fact that Israelis still want to live there, given all the things i mentioned, shows how much the land means to them.

 

[bigboyjames]

Jews were expelled from Israel by the Romans, at around 100AD. They were only allowed to return in decent numbers during British rule after WW1.

oh please, can you fucking stop with this argument. im srsly, sick of it. what are you trying to say? that because the Romans expelled them 1900 years ago they should be allowed to go back and take over palestine? your a fucking joke like the rest of you pro Zionist wankers. do you even read what your typing? by the same notion, 1900 years after Israel was created, using the same great logic that you have brought forward here, Palestinians who have lived in exile in surrounding Arab and western countries should be allowed to come back, remove, dismantle, kill and murder everyone in Israel and take back their land! how does that sound?

Jews could have established a country in another part of the world where they could live in peace. They have chosen to live in the Middle East and as a result Israelis have fought many wars and each day they go through extreme security procedures.

what are you trying to say? that the procures taken up by Zionist elite to create a state for Jews should not be taken into account (slaughter, mass murder, and elimination of Palestinian, ethnic cleansing etc etc) simply because they were "so self determined" to create a country in the middle east? so your saying that all those Palestinians who have died mean nothing because ..........Israel fought so many wars and were underdogs? oh c'mon!

Heres some things Israelis go through:
- Men have to serve 3 years in the army, women spend 2 years in the army or national service (very religious people are exempt from the army)
-They get scanned by a guy with metal detector at the entrance of a shopping centre
- People on organised tours have a guard going with them
- People who park their car in shopping centre car park get their car searched.

"He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither." -Benjamin Franklin

The fact that Israelis still want to live there, given all the things i mentioned, shows how much the land means to them.

lol, yeah, a few million Palestinian expelled from their homes, killed, and murdered does mean much does it?great logic. are you sure you arnt a descended of someone who implemented the mas murder of aborigines during colonial times? c;mon!, dont be ashamed

 

[ZabZu]

oh please, can you fucking stop with this argument. im srsly, sick of it. what are you trying to say? that because the Romans expelled them 1900 years ago they should be allowed to go back and take over palestine?

I never said i supported a Jewish state being established where it is at the moment. I just outlined Jewish connection to the land. A connection that you said didnt exist.

Given all whats happened since 1948, I dont think all the suffering, both Jewish and Arab, was worth it. A Jewish state should have been established somewhere else. However, I have the gift of hindsight. I dont think Zionists before 1950 would have thought the region would have turned out as bad as it has.

I have sympathy for the Palestinians and I have said I do many times. They have been displaced and they deserve a state. However, what will destroying Israel solve? Israeli Jews will become displaced and the numbers of refugees will far outnumber Palestinian refugees (those living outside Israel and the Palestinian territories). Now, why is it not ok to displace Palestinians but ok to displace Jewish Israelis? Surely a better situation would be to split the land? Even Sam admits Israel should still exist.

You mention some attrocities Israelis have committed. There have been attrocities committed on BOTH sides. Also, over the past 20 years most Israelis have come to support the establishment of a Palestinian state. If you look at the results from the last Israeli election, parties that supported the 2 state solution such as Kadima, Labour and a pensioners party all did well, even though Hamas was elected just a month before in the Palestinian territories. Yet in the Muslim world a dominant opinion is that Israel be destroyed, despite the fact that its existed for 60 years and is a prominent member of the international community.

 

[JaredR]

Jews were expelled from Israel by the Romans, at around 100AD. They were only allowed to return in decent numbers during British rule after WW1.

Jews could have established a country in another part of the world where they could live in peace. They have chosen to live in the Middle East and as a result Israelis have fought many wars and each day they go through extreme security procedures.

Heres some things Israelis go through:
- Men have to serve 3 years in the army, women spend 2 years in the army or national service (very religious people are exempt from the army)
-They get scanned by a guy with metal detector at the entrance of a shopping centre
- People on organised tours have a guard going with them
- People who park their car in shopping centre car park get their car searched.

The fact that Israelis still want to live there, given all the things i mentioned, shows how much the land means to them.

You fail to mention security checks at bus and train stations and significant Jewish places of worship such as the Western Wall. Children are also escorted on outings by armed soldiers.

 

[-Anfernee-]

Hasn't it been said what happened? Hezbollah happened, Lebanon became a part of Syria and radicals like sam emigrated around the world to shed light on an unpopular view of the Lebanese.

Fortunately there are still countless decent Lebanese.

lol...:rofl:

 

[sam04u]

isn't it convenient that Sam has totally ignored my response!?

It's old and unworthy of response.

A large proportion of Lebanese politicians are strongly against Syrian influence/involvement in Lebanon.

I think that's healthy. Lebanon is not Syria.
It's good to have some opposition to Syria in Lebanon. But, Lebanon should still not isolate itself from one of it's friendlier neighbours (which is the point I've been arguing.)

ive got a good Lebanese friend at uni. she is Lebanese christian and the Hezbollah issue came about and i asked her do people even support Hezbollah. she said that the Christians are divided, Sunni's divided, but the shias are united behind them.

Quite true. Overall though there is a shift in favour of Hezbollah more recently.

Talk about Israel~

Irrelevant to this thread. This is about Hezbollah. Hezbollah has nothing to do with Jews living in Israel. kthanx.

 

[sam04u]

This guy should be ruler of the world.

Like 50% of his assertions were factually wrong (opinions and such aside).
What kind of world do you want to live in?

 

[G.e.M.z]

This guy is actually a girl!

Just because my response is a couple of weeks old it doesn't make it irrelevant

While you try and figure out the Middle East my focus is on Lebanon (sure the Middle East is interlinked but my passion lies in one country and it cuts me to think that Lebanon is the battlefield for greater powers/forces)

I ask Sam once again - Have you ever been to Lebanon?

And thanks for support JKhoury

And just because I disagree with some of your absurd statements Sam, does not mean that I am wrong...what qualifies you to be right exactly? Where do you get your information from?

 

[bigboyjames]

Given all whats happened since 1948, I dont think all the suffering, both Jewish and Arab, was worth it. A Jewish state should have been established somewhere else. However, I have the gift of hindsight. I dont think Zionists before 1950 would have thought the region would have turned out as bad as it has.

Of course, no one can predict the future. basically, I do not care about the region. The region is a shit whole unquestionably which in my opinion is what the Arabs deserve. After all, leaders are a simple reflection of the populace. But that's a discussion for another day.

However, what will destroying Israel solve? Israeli Jews will become displaced and the numbers of refugees will far outnumber Palestinian refugees (those living outside Israel and the Palestinian territories). Now, why is it not ok to displace Palestinians but ok to displace Jewish Israelis? Surely a better situation would be to split the land? Even Sam admits Israel should still exist.

Jewish forces drove up to 700,000 Palestinians into exile. And after the first war, Israel barred the return of the Palestinian exiles whom had to live in tents so white European can live in their homes. why wasn't their any outcry?

Splitting the land? The Zionist elite would never allow it and this was never their intention! For all the public rhetoric about wanting to ‘live with the Arabs in conditions of unity and mutual honor and together with them to turn the common homeland into a flourishing land’ (Twelfth Zionist Congress, 1921 ), the Zionists from early on were in fact bent on expelling the Palestinians.

You mention some attrocities Israelis have committed. There have been attrocities committed on BOTH sides.

WHAT!? You cannot have a state which slaughters, wipes out and removes millions of people off its land , whom are Palestinian Muslim and Christians which are being slaughtered by Zionists, and simultaneously deny those people the ability to bear arms and defend themselves AGAINST OCCUPIERS. You can try, but it can never be made to work, NO MATTER WHAT. This reaction is a natural self defense mechanism in individuals. You cannot change it.

Also, over the past 20 years most Israelis have come to support the establishment of a Palestinian state. If you look at the results from the last Israeli election, parties that supported the 2 state solution such as Kadima, Labour and a pensioners party all did well.

yeah, when did democratic governments even enforce what the majority of the people wanted?
Anyways, who are the Israelis to decide what happens on Palestinian land? I could never support such an apartheid regime. A state filled with European survivors of the holocaust. you look at a world map and the middle east region, all you see around the Mediterranean and the middle east are Arabs, wogs, black hair brown eyes.....and in the middle somewhere you have blond hair blue eyed Caucasian. What a fucking joke. (im not trying be racist, but i hope you know what i mean?)

even though Hamas was elected just a month before in the Palestinian territories. Yet in the Muslim world a dominant opinion is that Israel be destroyed, despite the fact that its existed for 60 years and is a prominent member of the international community.

yada yada yada. Israel is in a position where it’s a strategic influence for western countries. That’s the only reason why it has so much support. Other than that no1 gives a shit.

 

[ZabZu]

Jewish forces drove up to 700,000 Palestinians into exile. And after the first war, Israel barred the return of the Palestinian exiles whom had to live in tents so white European can live in their homes. why wasn't their any outcry?

Tens of thousands of Palestinians left on their own accord because they believed the Arab armies would take back the land and they could return home after the fighting.

If all Palestinian refugees return to Israel, it would no longer be a Jewish state.

Splitting the land? The Zionist elite would never allow it and this was never their intention! For all the public rhetoric about wanting to ‘live with the Arabs in conditions of unity and mutual honor and together with them to turn the common homeland into a flourishing land’ (Twelfth Zionist Congress, 1921 ), the Zionists from early on were in fact bent on expelling the Palestinians.

Thats correct, im not disputing that, but im talking about the past 20 years. Public opinion in Israel has changed. Most Israelis support the establishment of a Palestinian state.

I could never support such an apartheid regime. A state filled with European survivors of the holocaust. you look at a world map and the middle east region, all you see around the Mediterranean and the middle east are Arabs, wogs, black hair brown eyes.....and in the middle somewhere you have blond hair blue eyed Caucasian. What a fucking joke. (im not trying be racist, but i hope you know what i mean?)

Israel is not an aparthied regime. Palestinians living in Israel (Israeli Arabs) hold Israeli citizenship, they are allowed to go anywhere in the country and there isnt forced segregation within Israel. Saying Israels treatment of Arabs is the same as aparthied South Africa's treatment of blacks or coloureds (half/half) is a load of crap.

If you actually go to Israel you will see that not all Jewish Israelis are white. Many of them are dark and some are black. Also, not many Jews have blond hair and blue eyes. If you knew anything about Hitler's aryan race you would know that.

 

[bigboyjames]

Tens of thousands of Palestinians left on their own accord because they believed the Arab armies would take back the land and they could return home after the fighting.

HA! i knew you were going to say this! Israeli officials have long claimed that the Arabs/Palestinians fled because their leaders told them to, but careful scholarship (much of it by Israeli historians like Morris and professor Stephen M. Walt OF HARVARD UNIVERSITY - mind you he still employed at Harvard) have demolished this myth. In fact, most Arab leaders urged the Palestinian population to stay home, but fear of violent death at the hands of Zionists led most Palestinians to flee....

Erskine Childers, “The Other Exodus,” Spectator, May 12, 1961; Flapan, Birth of Israel, pp. 81‐118; Walid Khalidi, “Why Did the Palestinians Leave Revisited,” Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. 34, No. 2 ( Winter 2005), pp. 42‐54; Idem, “The Fall of Haifa,” Middle East Forum, Vol. 35, No. 10 (December, 1959), pp. 22‐32; Morris, Birth Revisited.

Thats correct, im not disputing that, but im talking about the past 20 years. Public opinion in Israel has changed. Most Israelis support the establishment of a Palestinian state.

true, but 100% of the same Israelis are not willing to give up the land that they have stolen.

Israel is not an aparthied regime. Palestinians living in Israel (Israeli Arabs) hold Israeli citizenship, they are allowed to go anywhere in the country and there isnt forced segregation within Israel. Saying Israels treatment of Arabs is the same as aparthied South Africa's treatment of blacks or coloureds (half/half) is a load of crap.

WHAT?!! In Israel, citizenship and nationality are two different things. Both Jews and non-Jews may have Israeli citizenship, but nationality is based on race. There is a Jewish nationality and an Arab nationality. All citizens must register with their nationality. Then Israel sets legal rights based on nationality rather than just citizenship. This makes Israel no different from apartheid South Africa or Nazi Germany.

 

[ZabZu]

HA! i knew you were going to say this! Israeli officials have long claimed that the Arabs/Palestinians fled because their leaders told them to, but careful scholarship (much of it by Israeli historians like Morris and professor Stephen M. Walt OF HARVARD UNIVERSITY - mind you he still employed at Harvard) have demolished this myth. In fact, most Arab leaders urged the Palestinian population to stay home, but fear of violent death at the hands of Zionists led most Palestinians to flee....

Palestinians fled their homes for a variety of reasons. You cant say that all of those who fled did so because they feared for their lives and the view of ONE left wing academic isnt very convincing. The fact is that 20% of Israel's population today is not Jewish. Haifa has a large Arab population and when Israel was created most Arabs in the city chose to stay. They did not experience a "violent death at the hands of Zionists".

true, but 100% of the same Israelis are not willing to give up the land that they have stolen.

Can you elaborate on that? If a Palestinian state is to be created it would have to be composed of land that is currently controlled by Israelis.

WHAT?!! In Israel, citizenship and nationality are two different things. Both Jews and non-Jews may have Israeli citizenship, but nationality is based on race. There is a Jewish nationality and an Arab nationality. All citizens must register with their nationality. Then Israel sets legal rights based on nationality rather than just citizenship. This makes Israel no different from apartheid South Africa or Nazi Germany.

There is discrimination in Israel against non-Jews, im not denying that. However, the level of racism in aparthied South Africa and Nazi Germany was on a far higher level.
- Black South Africans had to wait until 1994 before they could vote in a federal election. In Israel, Arab Israelis have full voting rights and there are Arab political parties in the Israeli parliament (the Knesset)
- In Germany, Jews were forced to wear a yellow star to indicate they're Jewish. Israeli Arabs dont have to wear anything that says they arent Jewish.
- In both Germany and South Africa the discriminated groups were excluded from sitting where other citizens sat (eg. segregation on buses and separate park benches), they could not swim in the same pool or go through the same entrance in a restaurant. There is none of this in Israel.
- In South Africa and Germany the disciminated groups were not viewed as human beings.
- In South Africa there were districts where only whites could live. An Arab Israeli can live anywhere in Israel.

Ill ask one of my Israeli friends about people "registering their nationality" but i think its just another lie created by the far-left.

 

[sam04u]

This guy is actually a girl!

Just because my response is a couple of weeks old it doesn't make it irrelevant

While you try and figure out the Middle East my focus is on Lebanon (sure the Middle East is interlinked but my passion lies in one country and it cuts me to think that Lebanon is the battlefield for greater powers/forces)

I ask Sam once again - Have you ever been to Lebanon?

And thanks for support JKhoury

And just because I disagree with some of your absurd statements Sam, does not mean that I am wrong...what qualifies you to be right exactly? Where do you get your information from?

I've never been to Lebanon (missed the opportunity last year at aroun this time), but I plan to in the future.

Well I must admit, I'm not ignorant and therefore blissful enough, to believe Lebanon's fate can be anything but that of it's neighbours.

But then again it's not just myself who believes this. Every politician in Lebanon understands the territorial relevance of Lebanon, sharing a flank between the occupied Palestinian territories, Israel and Syria.

Even little Cyprus which doesn't share a border with any of these countries is not ignorant enough to believe it can isolate itself from these issues. In the 2006 war they accepted over 10,000 Lebanese escapees who had been visiting Lebanon and had passports in other countries (long enough for them to get back home). How can you as a person be passionate about Lebanon, and not have an opinion on the issues, that concern Lebanon directly? There are 400,000 Palestinians in Lebanon. So even if you only concerned yourself with Lebanon, the Palestinian issue is vital even in that.

Lebanon has to be exactly what people like you don't want it to be. It has to be the center of the Palestinian issue. Otherwise it'll never get resolved, and everytime the Palestinians get a leader worthy of the name there will be another intifada which (as has been shown in the past) will effect Lebanon economically, damage it's infrastructure, etc.

Hezbollah is a very important catalyst in bringing that about. Hezbollah did it's prisoner exchange with Israel, that opened up talks for a Palestinian exchange. Now that Hezbollah is discussing the Shebaa farm area, that will open talks for Palestinians in the future. Something like >50% of Palestinians said they would prefer Hezbollah leading the talks for the Palestine/Israel issue (prisoner exchange).

So Hezbollah is relevant in that respect as well. It gives Lebanon regional credibility, and has effectively made Lebanon an important factor in any issue involving Israel and the rest of the Middle East.

 

[sam04u]

- In South Africa and Germany the disciminated groups were not viewed as human beings.

You've obviously not heard some of the things many Israelis have been saying about Palestinians. Apparently they're "animals who wipe their ass with sand, and drink and bath in their own sewerage water".

You've probably not spoken with your Israeli friends about this in a way which would highlight their prejudices. If only there was some sort of Borat-esque comedian who could bring that attitude to light, you would see an almost wicked side of Israel. (I'm not even talking about the hardcore Zionists either).

- In South Africa there were districts where only whites could live. An Arab Israeli can live anywhere in Israel.

You know that's not true. I'm guessing you have some new propoganda you want to use to discredit my argument (it must be new) because anyone who has discussed this issue for as long as you have knows full well that there are Jewish only settlements in Israel (where Arabs may not even pass through, let alone live in).
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/settlements.html

 

[ZabZu]

You've obviously not heard some of the things many Israelis have been saying about Palestinians. Apparently they're "animals who wipe their ass with sand, and drink and bath in their own sewerage water".

Im well aware that some right-wing Israelis think like that. My point was that Israeli institutions such as the justice system, government, etc view Israeli Arabs and Palestinians as human beings. The highest court in Israel has often ruled in favour of Arab claims.

You know that's not true. I'm guessing you have some new propoganda you want to use to discredit my argument (it must be new) because anyone who has discussed this issue for as long as you have knows full well that there are Jewish only settlements in Israel (where Arabs may not even pass through, let alone live in).
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/settlements.html

Your talking about Palestinians in the occupied territories, im talking about internationally recognised Israeli borders and Arab Israelis within it. Do you have a source saying that Arabs with Israeli citizenship cant live in certain areas because they're only for Jews?

You cant say that Israel is an aparthied state by only looking at its policies in the West Bank and Gaza, you need to look at Israel itself as well. In aparthied South Africa and Nazi Germany, aparthied policies weren't only applied in particular states or regions, it applied throughout each country. The policies were only based on ethnicity and race. The region where Africans and Jews were living made no difference to their treatment.

 

[ZabZu]

WHAT?!! In Israel, citizenship and nationality are two different things. Both Jews and non-Jews may have Israeli citizenship, but nationality is based on race. There is a Jewish nationality and an Arab nationality. All citizens must register with their nationality. Then Israel sets legal rights based on nationality rather than just citizenship.

I got a reply from my Israeli friend. He said that Israel did issue ID cards that said a person's nationality (ethnicity) but from 2003 it doesnt display the nationality.

 

[bigboyjames]

ZabZu, your a funny man. in your mind set you have it that an apartheid system = S Africa or nazi Germany. yes, Israel isn't as extreme as those regimes but it still qualifies to be considered a apartheid state.

lol, 2003 they stopped that system? 70 years too late.

 

[ZabZu]

ZabZu, your a funny man. in your mind set you have it that an apartheid system = S Africa or nazi Germany.

If there are claims that a country is an aparthied regime it is normally compared to aparthied South Africa. Also you did say "This makes Israel no different from apartheid South Africa or Nazi Germany."

 

[JaredR]

ZabZu, your a funny man. in your mind set you have it that an apartheid system = S Africa or nazi Germany. yes, Israel isn't as extreme as those regimes but it still qualifies to be considered a apartheid state.

lol, 2003 they stopped that system? 70 years too late.

70 years too Late? Israel is only 60 years old today. That's mathematically not possible...

 

[bigboyjames]

70 years too Late? Israel is only 60 years old today. That's mathematically not possible...

+1. you win the debate.