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Is War Over? (2 Viewers)

Is war over?

  • Yes

    Votes: 7 46.7%
  • No

    Votes: 8 53.3%

  • Total voters
    15
K

katie_tully

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At the time I have no doubt they were sure it was the right thing to do.
It's probably something we'll never understand or appreciate, because we've never grown up in the midst of a war.
 

Iron

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Exphate said:
Traditional war died with the onset of Christmas in 1914. For so very lontg, wars were about outflanking the opponent - wars of movement. With Christmas of 1914, and the digging in of the armies, war turned into a stalemate, and it was instead about who could outlast the other. And as we know, both WWI and WWII, the Allies were about to outlast the Germans and their allies to take victory.

These days, war is about shock and awe. Go in, do as much damage as you can, as quickly as you can then send in the men afterwards.
Im not exactly talking about traditional war - im talking about war at its basic core. We're talking about how a state gets what it wants in an anarchic world. This has always involved a long political process, of which war is the last resort.
I mean, your examples only apply to American wars of the last 50years or so, where they've gone after friendless little rogue states without a doubt about the outcome.

When it comes to serious disputes between serious players - China demands America immediately honour all debts, for instance - where does the dispute go? Nuclear war would need a mixture of madness, mistake, misinterpretation. Not impossible, but assuming rationality, how can states get what they want (and remain better off for it) anymore?

Is globalisation an admission that overt military action is no longer a serious option for serious players? Would it be better to have the military absorbed into a policing role against non-state actors who act against the new world order of global cooperation?
 

Luke!

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Iron said:
War - once so fantastic, it could offer ordinary men the world and its souls. It was a religion which we worshiped and honoured with sacrifices.

But not anymore?
Do a combination of factors, like WWI (futile loss of a generation) Nuclear Weapons (victory is defeat) and globalization mark the end of great big serious wars against civilizations?
(never mind 3rd world squabbles or petty policing wars like Kosovo, Iraq)

In the words of Adolf Hitler, is "das krieg forlorn"?
Have you considered whether "petty policing wars like ... Iraq" could be manifestations of larger, less obvious power stuggles? Much like Vietnam was just a manifestation of the Cold War— a struggle between two opposing ideals.

Have you considered the possibility of future large-scale resource wars over oil/water, et cetera, as those resources become more scarce?

Remember, they called WW1 'the war to end all wars', then look at what happened just over a decade later. So, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of future large-scale military conflict.

Besides, the way I see human history... it isn't a history of peace with periods of war, it's a history of war with periods of peace... and I don't think that will ever change.

Luke.
 

Iron

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Luke! said:
Have you considered whether "petty policing wars like ... Iraq" could be manifestations of larger, less obvious power stuggles? Much like Vietnam was just a manifestation of the Cold War— a struggle between two opposing ideals.

Have you considered the possibility of future large-scale resource wars over oil/water, et cetera, as those resources become more scarce?

Remember, they called WW1 'the war to end all wars', then look at what happened just over a decade later. So, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of future large-scale military conflict.

Besides, the way I see human history... it isn't a history of peace with periods of war, it's a history of war with periods of peace... and I don't think that will ever change.

Luke.
At the risk of getting bogged down in the flanderesque mud of detail...
America's mistake in Vietnam was to identify Vietnamese Communism with Chinese and Soviet versions. They were really nationalists who believed they were fighting a colonial war. In reality, they had nothing but a temporary enemy in common with Russia, and much less with China.
But a frequent quote coming out of that struggle is that "we lost because we werent allowed to win" or "we were forced to fight with our hands tied behind our backs" because the superpowers were highly alert to movements which could spark nuclear war (bombing Chinese/Soviet supply ships docked in Hanoi for instance) - they had to limit that war (and therefore lose) because total war was totally unacceptable.

But still, what are you suggesting about Iraq? That it really IS democracy vs tyranny, oppression, hatred, extremism, unpleasantness, bad manners, awkward social situations, poor taste in clothing and music? If so, how interesting.

I take your point on resource wars. But im of the opinion that it could go either way. Man can unite or remain divided. The former is harder and less likely, but yeilds the best result for der human race... unless racism swings back into vogue and certain coalitions of nations are defined by their ability to represent and defend their particular race.

As for the rest of your post, you havent addressed nuclear weapons.

banco55 said:
Have a look at the projected casualties (on both sides) for an invasion of Japan and you might think differently.
Have a look at the cost of building the bomb and the conclusions that the war would have been over about a year earlier if the money was instead diverted into conventional weapons
Have a look at Japanese attempts to surrender in order to spare the mainland from invasion
Have a look at American political motives, especially the growing tensions with the USSR over post-war Europe
 

sam04u

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Musk said:
An attack on Iran would be catastrophic. A depression, a world war and millions of dead bodies would only be a few of the events which would follow.
 

sam04u

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A war on Iraq, which is a smaller and less populated country resulted in over 1,000,000 dead. Did you predict that would happen? I bet you didn't.

A war on Iraq, a country with less military capability and influence internationally costed over a trillion dollars, and resulted in debt and instability in the U.S economy.

A war on Iraq has resulted in tensions and opposition of different governments, and acts against the U.N's resolutions which further reduced the U.N's ability to mediate conflicts.


Who predicted that would be the case? Donald Rumsfeld said they would be welcomed and that the war would cost only $60 billion USD, but that figure has been multiplied by 20.

A war on Iran would be devastating. Socially, economically and even morally.
 

flappinghippo

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Iron said:
Have a look at the cost of building the bomb and the conclusions that the war would have been over about a year earlier if the money was instead diverted into conventional weapons
Have a look at Japanese attempts to surrender in order to spare the mainland from invasion
Have a look at American political motives, especially the growing tensions with the USSR over post-war Europe
The Manhattan Project was under way because the Los Alamos scientists thought that German scientists might have been developing their own for Hitler. It's very easy to look back and see that they weren't, but seeing what Hitler did during that war, you wouldn't have taken any chances if there was any doubt.

Yeah I did physics.

But wait, there were attempts to surrender? That's news to me.
 

sam04u

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What the fuck.. post #52 is a response I made to #55.
Tiem paradox!!1
 

Serius

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flappinghippo said:
The Manhattan Project was under way because the Los Alamos scientists thought that German scientists might have been developing their own for Hitler. It's very easy to look back and see that they weren't, but seeing what Hitler did during that war, you wouldn't have taken any chances if there was any doubt.

Yeah I did physics.

But wait, there were attempts to surrender? That's news to me.
Yeah it was sort of seen as an arms race, I remember reading about heavy water and stuff to do with rockets that was also a race [many German scientists after the war fled to America and worked on rockets and eventually the space race]

heres some stuff on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_nuclear_weapons

current thinking is that the atom bomb saved lives by ending the war quickly, saying the war would have been over quicker is poor thinking, sure it would have been but back then how were they to know that the Germans weren't developing the same weapons?
 

banco55

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There was talk of surrender within the Japanese establishment but the 'pro-surrender' faction was only one voice and even those who advocated some kind of surrender usually had a whole raft of conditions for the americans. Bottom line is they didn't surrender until the bomb was dropped.
 

Graney

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Musk said:
Once the use of oil is gone, middle eastern societies will collapse
Won't the whole world collapse without oil anyway?
 

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