Michael Moore's Open Letter To George Bush (2 Viewers)

[spell check]

I love Fox News but it's hardly propaganda, its just slightly more conservative.. So i guess that makes it propaganda?

Once i left it on for 6 days non-stop in my room and just turned it away when it was too bright to get to sleep. With the scrolling news at the bottom.. Its like you can hear the economy turning. *sigh*

no wonder you're such a racist

 

[spell check]

How is it propaganda? Someone please give me an example.. Yes it is pro-flag but i can hardly see how that is propaganda.

you just contradicted yourself

the fact that it is blindly pro-flag, and by extension, pro-government, means it is irrelevant as an effective source of unbiased information and news on issues both domestically in the US such as N'Orleans and also on foreign events as in Iraq.

it is always going to feed the viewer opinions and slanted information in order to push the pro-flag doctrine.

and that's not even mentioning the republican bias and dishonest blending of "fact" and opinion

 

[jennylim]

Its bias level would be no more than say Fox news for the right wing brigade...

i contest that.

"and then, the united states invaded a sovereign nation that had never killed a single american."

[cut to shots of happy weddings, children playing in parks and flying kites while the sun shines down on the lovely sight.] sorry, but that fucking pissed me off. i was shouting in the cinema. any attempt at creating a credible argument flew out the window at that point.

or what about the fact that it presents points in correlation without having proved a causal link? (ie the link with the carlyle group). i got the impression that he was trying to state that Osama bombed the Twin Towers in order to profit his family through the Carlyle Group. basically, the next assumption was that simply because the Carlyle Group has recently made a lot of money, and we can see that the Bush family and the Saud groups are linked to this, President Bush is therefore conducting the war in Iraq purely on the basis of money.

while the assumption is there, the causal link is not.

or the framing of shots - ie, bush, cheney and the whole brigade preening for the camera in a slightly sinister fashion? think about it. what are they doing? sitting there, getting themselves made up for the camera like everyone in the media does. but it's construed into something to make them look like dickheads. he creates a nebulous aura of doubt and negativity but with few specifics (in these scenes).

propaganda? perhaps not. but certainly a documentary aimed at influencing the emotions and trying to position responders in a certain way. in this way, although i am not a war apologist, f911 really made me furious.

 

[Comrade nathan]

Once i left it on for 6 days non-stop in my room and just turned it away when it was too bright to get to sleep

Your lame.

 

[supercharged]

I hate how fox news supports the line that America is free to do anything at all in the world, invade countries it deems a 'threat', ignore the 'irrelevant' UN and international law whenever as it pleases, consume all the world's resources and pollute at will, but when another country tries to do the exact same thing, it is labelled a 'rogue nation' or a 'threat to peace'.... how hypocritical

 

[spell check]

certainly a documentary aimed at influencing the emotions and trying to position responders in a certain way. in this way, although i am not a war apologist, f911 really made me furious.

wow what a scathing criticism

no movies EVER do that

 

[walrusbear]

yeah you're right, i don't even read textbooks without doing all the research first myself


moore is just summarising the case for bush having fucked up here, he's not trying to influence the actual administration. that's why he put it on the internet and not just mailed to the white house.

and anyone who complains about fahrenheit 911 being shit and propaganda is a fucking moron. it's not as though he's a journalist or a news anchor, it was a film that won the palme d'or at cannes, next time you make a film that good you can say it was shit.

oh and just for the record

prop·a·gan·da ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prp-gnd)
n.
The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.
Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause: wartime propaganda.

it's hardly criticism to say moore made F911 with the intention of advocating the 'anti-bush' cause.
whenever anyone says anything intended to influence people towards a particular way of thinking, that is propaganda.

f911 is a polemic, not propaganda
uses some dodgy techniques, but what isn't subjective?

 

[Iron]

Murdoch is evil, but I think he tries to back the winner. His papers backed Whitlam in the 70s becasue it was obvious that he would win.
Everyone was willing to rally round the flag immediatly after s11, but patriotism like that hadn't been seen since Kennedy and the begining of Vietnam. As Iraq turns hairy, the media will hopefully become more critical - even though it's harder without film of the body bags/with a media monopoly

 

[Not-That-Bright]

What the hell are you guys talking about with your 'propaganda' claims?
Where is the substance?!
WHERE?!

 

[walrusbear]

or the framing of shots - ie, bush, cheney and the whole brigade preening for the camera in a slightly sinister fashion? think about it. what are they doing? sitting there, getting themselves made up for the camera like everyone in the media does. but it's construed into something to make them look like dickheads. he creates a nebulous aura of doubt and negativity but with few specifics (in these scenes).

propaganda? perhaps not. but certainly a documentary aimed at influencing the emotions and trying to position responders in a certain way. in this way, although i am not a war apologist, f911 really made me furious.

no shit

your other point is true however, it's a weakness in his argument

 

[Not-That-Bright]

propaganda? perhaps not. but certainly a documentary aimed at influencing the emotions and trying to position responders in a certain way. in this way, although i am not a war apologist, f911 really made me furious.

No it's definately anti-bush propaganda.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

and anyone who complains about fahrenheit 911 being shit and propaganda is a fucking moron. it's not as though he's a journalist or a news anchor, it was a film that won the palme d'or at cannes, next time you make a film that good you can say it was shit.

Wtf? Why should I give a crap if it's a good movie or not. It presented outright lies and decieved people just to push his bs agenda, then you have people still comming out to defend the bs lies and not bothering to even listen to the counter-evidence.

 

[walrusbear]

No i didn't; it can be pro-flag and not be propaganda. Even if it was propaganda, that would be a good thing. It is by no means as conservative as it could be.

I know that some people are used to governments not doing things in the best interests of the flag, but in both the US and Australia, the governments have a patriotic flavour too them, so it does make it hard to discern between Pro-gov and Pro-Flag.

And who is anyone to complain that something is propaganda? When people openly idolise left wing propaganda... Ohh i get it.. It's only propaganda if its right wing.. ok then.

When has anything from the media ever been reliable or unbiased?

Every media source does this.

Republican bias... Of course it's republican bias, as its patriotic. Who else are they going to be biased towards other than the Republicans, if they are patriotic? No other party is conservative enough to be honoured with the title of being a patriotic party, and are too concerned about irrelevant stuff.

Just as some media outlets in Australia are biased towards Labor (like the ABC was before the election), at least this bias makes sense as the republicans are actually in power. They aren't stupid like the ABC in Australia, who identified with a party which holds no power and hopefully never will again.

I find it jovial that people here cheer when there is some left wing bullshit on the media.. And quite willingly over look its obvious bias.. But if it has any sense of nationalism to it... ITS PROPAGANDA! I think that may be a result of you being able to sense when someone is patriotic.. And so you reject it.. But you love to eat up the left wing crap because its what you like... I can see how you would do this...... But you can't totally dismiss right wing news for everyone. Maybe for yourself though.

Double standards........

is anything not right wing prop automatically left wing prop for you?
if ABC does have an alp bias it is extremely weak. the labor party doesn't escape scrutiny

 

[jennylim]

wow what a scathing criticism

no movies EVER do that

well, no other movies try to make a serious political point, do they? of course they're aimed at the emotions (making us laugh or cry or reflect). this one's aimed at influencing how we view certain political events.

basically, do you think leni riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will is propaganda? or a good movie? i think it rates as propaganda because it actively tries to affect how the viewer sees hitler and the nazi party. therefore, because f911 tries to do the same thing, i classify it as propaganda. or an attempt at propaganda.

and yeah, before you ask, leni IS my personality study. just as a note to the dickhead who said that f911 was a great movie and shit that won the palme d'or, Triumph of the Will won both germany's film festival prize and the venice biennale film festival's gold medal. propaganda does win stuff. and you also need to take into account the severe anti-US bias in france. i saw little artistic merit in that film...certainly not enough to get a 20 minute standing ovation.

the thing about f911 is that michael moore actually thought he was saying something really important that everyone needed to know. he thought that it showed groundbreaking new stuff in a convincing way. to be honest, a bit more objectivity couldn't have hurt. in fact it might have made his stance just that little bit more credible.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn’t stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

So, when Bush goes to the rubble of 9/11 it’s a cynical ploy on his part. Then, when he doesn’t go to the disaster site in Louisiana it’s because he doesn’t care. If Bush had gone charging into Louisiana on a boat Mikey would criticize him for that. There’s nothing, nothing that Bush does that Mikey won’t claim was wrong. Of course, Moore won’t actually tell you what Bush should have done. Why? Because if Bush subsequently does it, then Mikey is on the record for it, and he’d have to agree that Bush did the right thing.

Spell Check: Fahrencrap 9/11 is nothing more than blatant deceit, and the worst thing about it is how much it has influenced people. If a right-wing propaganda film came out, that made bush seem like jesus, using a bunch of BS evidence to back its self up (and then you found people using this as justification for their beliefs, despite how much proof there is it's bs), you would hate that film.

 

[jennylim]

yeah, it's like in f911 when he whines about how there wasn't enough security. then he whines that there's too much and harmless things can't be taken onto planes.

or he'll whine about not enough troops being deployed to afghanistan, moments after whining about too many being sent to iraq.

anything bush does is construed to look evil or dumb. i bet, for example, if he heard the news about 9/11 and instantly got up, moore would say "oh look, he acts without thinking." and perhaps say that he was stupid and impulsive.

the funniest thing is moore doesn't quite realise that he does this and he can whinge about contradictory things without a trace of irony.

 

[jennylim]

just a quick note...

my vitriol about f911 is based on how it's been able to affect people with no substantial reason!!!!

i went and saw it with two friends. ok, i was dragged along. by the end of it i was utterly unimpressed and the two of them were snivelling wrecks, crying and saying how awful war was and how we should all stop war and have world peace and that bush was evil evil evil evil and...

yeah, you get the point. i just couldn't contain my fury at how moore treated his audience like they were stupid!! and everything else. the fact that f911 actively works on emotions and exploits illogical and irrational thinking (while accusing bush of doing the same thing...fearmongering) annoys the crap out of me like you wouldn't believe.

 

[jennylim]

yeah walrusbear, the thing about moore is that he might be more appreciated in the US because they have ppl like ann coulter, rush limbaugh and bill o'reilly. we don't have that here. as a result f911 comes across as far too strong and irritating. maybe it balances things out in the US...here it does the opposite.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

his greatest asset is to give many americans an alternative view of things, even if it is highly biased

But you have no basis for believing his work is less bias than the news. Not even chomsky believes the news is inherently bias towards democrats/republicans... it's just that it has to pass through the theatres to the point that it's bias towards capitalism etc.

If your claiming the news's republican bias = moores left wing bias then I disagree.
But if you're claiming the news's bias (in general) = moores bias then I agree.

edit: In Australia we have the problem that the only American politics anyone is exposed to... is michael moore's films. Therefore people are willing to believe what he says (unless they're into doing a little research) just because it sounds right.

 

[walrusbear]

michael moore is great for pissing off conservatives with polemics that have populist appeal
his greatest asset is to give many americans an alternative view of things, even if it is highly biased

imho his work is no more biased than mainstream media. probably slanted in even ways