• Congratulations to the Class of 2024 on your results!
    Let us know how you went here
    Got a question about your uni preferences? Ask us here

Muslim headscarves (2 Viewers)

chubbaraff

Proudly BOS Left
Joined
Jun 4, 2004
Messages
159
Location
Wollongong
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
There aren't many people wearing hijabs in our electorate...
What can I say... I have friends who wear hijabs and I see lots of people, nothing defines them as unaustralian.. ohh wait except for Bronwyn Bishops out of order comments.
 

googooloo

Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
280
Location
Lets see....um...not sure really?
Gender
Female
HSC
2005
soha said:
thats kinda like how i get offended when i see half naked people
with major cleavage
really mini skirts
belly buttons exposed..bikinis
etc..
I feel the same way, but everyone has a right to wear what they wish and believe what they wish to believe, so therefore the headscarf okay,a nd doesn't defy the aussie govt. as Bishop was trying to say, htough I thought her arguement was very contradictory, I don't think she knew what she was talking about.
 

googooloo

Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
280
Location
Lets see....um...not sure really?
Gender
Female
HSC
2005
Wesnat said:
These women believe that they must wear it all the time (in public, if I'm not mistaken), irrelevant of where they are. This ban still requires them to change their values to a certain extent. Otherwise, they won't be offended, which obviously is not the case.

EDIT: wasn't there a fuss about a Muslim high schooler who was suspended from school for wearing the headscarf a few months ago? If I recall correctly, she said something along the lines of interfering with her beliefs. So, obviously this ban does have an effect on their beliefs and values.

On a side note, I've read some letters in the newspapers. Apparently some people are offended by the sight of women wearing the headscarves...
It wasn't the banning of the headscarf, it was the banning of the jilbab i think it's called, the long jacket. They said it wasn't uniform. But I had the general understanding that if it's to the school colours you can wear it.
 

googooloo

Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
280
Location
Lets see....um...not sure really?
Gender
Female
HSC
2005
Wesnat said:
These women believe that they must wear it all the time (in public, if I'm not mistaken), irrelevant of where they are.
I hope u didn't mean this in an offensive way. You must wear hijab when in public, and in the company of strnagers in your home, famliy is okay, and your husbands family, beucase they become your family, but if it is a distant family member then you must wear it. iT is obligitoary, for a owman to take it up some point in a muslim woman's life
 

googooloo

Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
280
Location
Lets see....um...not sure really?
Gender
Female
HSC
2005
[QUOTE futile_blather]
How would it force them to change their values - the ban would only be active in school jurisdictions, not for the entirety of society. They can wear what they like out of the school environment, thus it would have no discernable effect on their values.
The hijab is for all the time, if it is not worn at school then i see the hijab wearing as being bascially void, if you get me. I do not know how to explain it properly.
 

Jordan.J

Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2004
Messages
412
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
This debate was started by Bronwyn Bishop, so who cares what she says
 

SabtheLab

Mindlessly Acuminous
Joined
Sep 6, 2004
Messages
114
Location
Sydney
Gender
Female
HSC
2005
nwatts said:
I say it's an argument that can never be resolved:

- If it is banned we'll have Muslim leaders up-in-arms about how this is imposing upon their religious practicies. It will also fuel secular commentators to call for bans upon other religious garments (as Raginsheep, Minai suggested) which is again an imposition on religious rights.
- If it is not banned we'll still have feminist groups angry about its symbolic representation of gender oppression, like what is seen in the article.

you see thats what bugs the bloody hell out of me. how the hell is it feminists business? i find the headscarf liberating. to me, it symbolisises my high staus as a woman in islam. it saves me from derogatory cat calls made by teenage hooligans as i walk down the street. it gives me the dignity and respect that i deserve as a human being. im cherished for my personality rather than what i look like. at least i know that when i aplly for a job or get a promotion at work, it's because of my abilities as a human rather than on the amount of cleavage i show. when looked at in the context of the pure religion, the headscarf is extremely liberating, connotating the rights and liberties which the "feminists" have been fighting for for years and still havn't fully achieved. unfortunately, because of the stupidity and undue patriarchy in muslim countries, the headscarf has wrongly become the symbol for oppression. but it's not!!!!! it's innocent. it's simply beene xploited in some countries by idiotic muslim men who have their own hidden agendas.

people, stop equating gender oppresiion with the scarf!! i and millions of other muslim women don the hijab willingly and yet we are the epitamy of intelligent, educated and active women. it's a stereotype which must be dropped.

next time the feminists decide they have to champion "those poor oppressed muslim women" think about the millions of other women who want to wear the hijab.
 

SabtheLab

Mindlessly Acuminous
Joined
Sep 6, 2004
Messages
114
Location
Sydney
Gender
Female
HSC
2005
MoonlightSonata said:
The strongest point in this argument is that it is harmful to the women who wear it because it acts as a repressive device in those cultures.

I for one agree that it is a silly, antiquated, patriarchal device (notwithstanding the fact that some women claim to be "liberated" by wearing it). However I do not think that this necessarily warrants banning it. Now, while I can see that it can cause harm, the extent of that harm I do not think justifies intervening to prohibit it by law. It would be nice to see it abolished but it is too great an interference with religious liberty to forcefully remove it.
ur ignorance neevr ceases to amaze me moonlight. "repressive device"? do you actually know anything about islamic doctrine and the REASON why women are told to wear the hijab? or do you simply follow your mummy and daddy who tell you that today tonight said it was repressive and their word is gospel?

plz moonlight, before you open your mouth and make an outrageous claim that soemthing is "silly and antiquated" , go and do your research!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

SabtheLab

Mindlessly Acuminous
Joined
Sep 6, 2004
Messages
114
Location
Sydney
Gender
Female
HSC
2005
MoonlightSonata said:
People can be made to feel anything with conditioning. It doesn't mean it is healthy or respectful. There really is no rational point behind it, in my opinion. It is anachronistic and ought to go -- just by the communities themselves, not by the law.
moonlight sonata, just because were muslim doesnt mean we have scary, bearded men whispering in our ears every night that we must wear the hijab. many muslim women in this couuntry have mothers who chose to integrate into australian culture and threw out the hijab. fortunately, the newer generation(us) are realising on our own accounts the value of the hijab.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

MoonlightSonata

Retired
Joined
Aug 17, 2002
Messages
3,645
Gender
Female
HSC
N/A
SabtheLab said:
ur ignorance neevr ceases to amaze me moonlight.
Yes, because I'm such an ignorant person and all. :rolleyes:

Although if (as you imply) by ignorant you mean that I do not agree with your view, then sure, I'm very ignorant.
SabtheLab said:
"repressive device"? do you actually know anything about islamic doctrine and the REASON why women are told to wear the hijab?
Because the religion says so. (Primarily in order to prevent indecent thoughts on the part of men.) But as I said, that kind of (lack of) reasoning is silly.
SabtheLab said:
or do you simply follow your mummy and daddy who tell you that today tonight said it was repressive and their word is gospel?
I love irony.
SabtheLab said:
plz moonlight, before you open your mouth and make an outrageous claim that soemthing is "silly and antiquated" , go and do your research!
With respect, I make the claim again: I believe it to be silly and antiquated.
SabtheLab said:
moonlight sonata, just because were muslim doesnt mean we have scary, bearded men whispering in our ears every night that we must wear the hijab.
I never said that. I spoke of religious and cultural conditioning. And by-the-by, attempts to thwart deviance has resulted in fear on the part of a significant number of young muslims, as evidenced by the experiences of Manji (refer to the article I posted earlier).
SabtheLab said:
many muslim women in this couuntry have mothers who chose to integrate into australian culture and threw out the hijab. fortunately, the newer generation(us) are realising on our own accounts the value of the hijab.
I'm curious, what value might that be?
 

riane

New Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2005
Messages
4
Gender
Female
HSC
2001
Moonlight, clearly you're an intelligent and rational person, so working off sheer emotion is not going to work with you :) I'm a Muslim woman who wears the headscarf, and I'm curious as to why you chose Irshad Manji to represent the views of Muslim women. I'm equally curious as to why you find the headscarf to be repressive.

Irshad Manji presents a warped version of Islam. I'm not alone in this view, as far as the Muslim community is concerned. Her suggestion that Muslim women have been culturally conditioned into wearing the headscarf is absurd. Culture often contradicts religion e.g. female genital mutilation has no bearing at all in Islam. Her being homosexual is also problematic, because someone who has violated a cardinal rule in Islam should not be picked as a voice for Muslim women and youth. I am bewildered by Irshad's 'experiences' with Muslim youth who try to deviate from the Islamic norm....what kind of deviation is she referring to? Islam is a faith for all ages, and it's not there to be reformed by any random person, to suit whatever agenda is on the table. Irshad lacks any scholarly qualifications, as well as the ability to understand classical arabic, to be able to make any sort of comment about Islamic jurisprudence and subsequent reform.

All over the Muslim world, the most important reason as to why a Muslim woman wears the headscarf is because it is part of our faith. Allah has commanded us to, just as He has regulated many other aspects of our lives. If that reasoning is not good enough for you, I can understand why. Without a proper understanding of the deep devotion a Muslim has for Allah, the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth, such reasoning would seem insufficient.

Take into account that Muslims equate the purpose of their lives with the worship of their Creator, and perhaps wearing the headscarf would make a bit more sense. Our moral and spiritual compasses are aligned with pleasing our Creator in all that we do - from maintaining our five daily prayers to our career choice, as well as the values we instill in our children. Everything in a Muslim's life should be geared into one being the best representative of Allah on this Earth, and the headscarf is part of that.

Have a read of the following article. Amal Awad is by far a much better representative of an educated, articulate Muslim woman than Irshad Manji.

http://smh.com.au/news/opinion/the-type-of...5302563878.html

The type of cover-up freedom lovers need not fear


Muslim dress should be celebrated as a sign of an accepting society, not seen as a threat, writes Amal Awad.

Whenever the spotlight turns on the Muslim community, it is usually in relation to a negative act: terrorism, local crime or accusations of Islamic demagogy. Muslims seem to find themselves at the centre of every problem - the obscure or negative is magnified and, like in some grotesque circus show, Muslims become the "other".

Once again, Muslim women's dress, and in particular the hijab, is under attack. Bronwyn Bishop labelled it an act of defiance, and then in the same breath opined that women who wear the hijab are as free as slaves.

Her wording is interesting, as a little more than a week ago I sat in the audience of Andrew Denton's Enough Rope and listened to one man tell me and my friends that we thought we were better than everyone else because we dressed modestly.

"What exactly is it about my headscarf that offends you, sir?" I asked.

Funnily enough, he didn't have an answer, but he did claim that, of all the migrants to this country, those pesky Muslims just weren't "good Australians".

It bewilders me that Muslims are singled out more than any other religious group. Is religion OK only as long as it's the "Astrayan" way? If so, what constitutes being Australian? More importantly, where does my freedom begin and where does yours end?

So I ask again: what is it about this dress that alarms people? I would ask Bishop how on earth she equates covering one's hair with a form of suffocated freedom. I am not locked in a golden cage and I am especially thankful that I am not imprisoned by prejudices.

Yet, understandably, the climate of fear and uncertainty feeds the prejudice of a minority. It is unfortunate and problematic, then, that the simplest Islamic practices raise the alarm, as though a headscarf can lead to violence.

It is worrying when a multicultural society such as Australia's ushers in an new era of witch-hunts, expecting religious followers to be apologetic for holding beliefs and engaging in practices that neither breach any laws nor offend the rights of others.

If Bishop's statements weren't so damaging in their contribution to a climate of Islamophobia, I would argue that the demonisation of Islam and its followers has taken on cartoonish qualities.

Who cares that a headscarf does not preclude one from having interests and goals, and an intelligent mind to pursue them? These are all minor details on the path to creating a homogenous brand of secularism that promotes a single idea of what it means to be Australian, or even a "moderate" version of Islam that does not offend.

Quite simply, Muslims see the world through a spiritual prism, and it leads us to make lifestyle choices that veer away from the norm at times. While this creates curiosity, there is no need for fear. Therefore, time and again, the ordinariness of Muslims is emphasised in a bid to affirm our normality.

It is deeply disturbing that in 2005 a woman should be criticised for choosing to wear a hijab after the hard work that has gone into fostering stronger community ties. A woman should be free to wear a headscarf without fear of censure or prejudice. That is what freedom in Australia is about.

Yet it would be a questionable kind of freedom that acknowledges a woman's right to wear a bikini but rejects another's right to cover up.

It is heartening to see that in a recent poll in a national newspaper, more than 70 per cent of the 5000-plus respondents said that the hijab should not be banned. Let us keep working, then, so that Australia continues to grow as a society where a well-educated, English-speaking woman wearing a hijab is no longer a novelty, but is as normal as a crucifix-wearing woman in an office.

Amal Awad is an executive member of the Australian Muslim Civil Rights Advocacy Network.
 

MoonlightSonata

Retired
Joined
Aug 17, 2002
Messages
3,645
Gender
Female
HSC
N/A
En garde!
riane said:
Moonlight, clearly you're an intelligent and rational person, so working off sheer emotion is not going to work with you :)
Thankyou for your kind words, and no it will not ;)
riane said:
I'm a Muslim woman who wears the headscarf, and I'm curious as to why you chose Irshad Manji to represent the views of Muslim women.
I did not choose her to represent the views of Muslim women. I posted that interview to show:

(a) evidence of religious, social conditioning through the unjustified foundations of tradition and fear;
(b) how I see a liberated, rational and modern Islamic woman should be;
(c) that the young generation of Muslims are more open and receptive to thinking critically about their religion and not following it as dogma.
riane said:
Irshad Manji presents a warped version of Islam.
But according to her, you are the one with the "warped view". Let's be clear about this. Warped means something turned from a correct or proper course, or to turn aside from a true, correct, or natural course -- ie. go astray unfavourably. Now, in her opinion, it is the current belief system that has gone astray from the old Islamic tradition of critical thinking and rationality. You think her view is wrong; she thinks your view is wrong. Simply saying that you think it is wrong does not advance your argument.
riane said:
I'm not alone in this view, as far as the Muslim community is concerned.
That is not really relevant is it? The true foundations of a religion, and the rational application of thought through critical thinking does not change just because the majority thinks so. Simply because a majority disagrees does not mean they are right.
riane said:
Her suggestion that Muslim women have been culturally conditioned into wearing the headscarf is absurd.
Why?
riane said:
Culture often contradicts religion e.g. female genital mutilation has no bearing at all in Islam. Her being homosexual is also problematic, because someone who has violated a cardinal rule in Islam should not be picked as a voice for Muslim women and youth.
This is where Manji (and I) think that a large number of Muslim people have gone awry. Manji says:
The problem is that in Islam today - not historically, but today - literalism has gone mainstream. What I mean is even moderate Muslims accept as an article of faith that the Koran is the immutable, untouchable, unfiltered word of God. Well, this is a supremacy complex and it's a supremacy complex that's dangerous because when abuse happens under the banner of my faith, most Muslims today don't know how to act ask hard questions, they don't know what to ask when faith becomes dogma, and I would suggest to you that the same cannot be said today for moderate Christians and Jews.

This is what I mean by a liberal reformation of Islam. We Muslims need to rediscover our own tradition of critical thinking, and it's a tradition we once had, it's a tradition that allowed Islamic civilisation to lead the world in curiosity, creativity and innovation. For entirely political purposes, Tony, we lost that tradition a thousand years ago but there is no reason, except for pure politics, that we cannot rediscover it again.
Her argument is that Islam is not about the dogmatic, literal following of rules. In particular, I say to you that when the teachings of a religion are plainly wrong and irrational, it is right to reject them. This advances that religion, it reforms it. She has done a great service to Islam by attempting to do so. When common sense conflicts with religion then there may be something wrong with the religion (there are obviously some parts worth rejecting if the religion states that being gay is wrong).

Read what Manji is saying here, it is highly important:
Well, absolutely it's time to come to terms with these facts. I think we have to recognise that the prophet Mohammed himself was very much a human being and the interesting thing is, Tony, that there is consensus within Islam about that. What has happened is that we Muslims have forgotten that Islam is about worshipping one God, not about worshipping one individual, and sadly, many of us, most of us, I would argue, have turned Islam into a cult of worship, of the prophet Mohammed himself, which if he was a perfect human being, probably wouldn't be an issue, but the fact is, and we Muslims accept this about the prophet, he was not perfect. And that is why I think we have to remind ourselves what was once right about Islam. You know, Bill Clinton said something about America that very much applies to Islam today. He said, "There is nothing wrong with America that cannot be corrected by what is right with America." Same in Islam. Nothing wrong with Islam that cannot be corrected by what was right with Islam at one point, namely, our tradition of critical thinking, but in order to get there, we first have to acknowledge that there is trouble within Islam today.
riane said:
I am bewildered by Irshad's 'experiences' with Muslim youth who try to deviate from the Islamic norm....what kind of deviation is she referring to?
Manji says:
Well, I think that the challenge here is actually to reach an emerging generation of Muslims and I can tell you, I now go around the world talking about the need for a liberal reformation of Islam, and easily, Tony, the most support that I get for this message comes from young Muslims, who are sick and tired of their madrasa teachers, their Islamic religious school teachers, their imams, selecting verses from the Koran that are retrograde and negative whatever telling what there is to be proud about Islam, and not proud in an arrogant way, proud in a very, very positive sense. And so I think that it's worthwhile for the Government of Australia to reach a new generation, but what they'll find when they do that, Tony, as I have found, is that this generation, while very reform-minded, is scared. They are scared not so much of the rhetorical persecution that I referred to earlier, being called names such as self-loathing Muslims or racist, they are scared of something even more concrete, and that is physical violence against themselves and their families from fellow Muslims.
This is the interview. You can see her comments on that in context there.
riane said:
Islam is a faith for all ages, and it's not there to be reformed by any random person, to suit whatever agenda is on the table.
She agrees with you (and I think you'll find that she is the one bringing the religion out of the twisted agenda):
I will tell you that there are verses in the Koran that, if exploited and manipulated, do seem to give support to the kinds of terrorists we're seeing today. After many of the bombings that we've seen around the world, you will hear Muslim spokespeople say, "The Koran is absolutely clear - that if you kill a human being, it's like killing all of mankind." No, the spirit of the verse says that, but the words of the verse don't. The verse actually says "If you kill a human being, except as punishment for murder or other villainy in the land, shall be regarded as having killed all mankind." That clause beginning with the word 'except' is a loophole. It's easily deployed by militant Muslims to support their violent bent jihads.

Again I'm not asking Muslims to revise the Koran or to somehow erase that verse, I'm asking Muslims to own up to the fact that this verse exists. So that we can begin dealing with where the terrorists get their ideas, and we can begin reinterpreting them in the light that so many Muslims claim is the right light, which is peace.
riane said:
Irshad lacks any scholarly qualifications, as well as the ability to understand classical arabic, to be able to make any sort of comment about Islamic jurisprudence and subsequent reform.
Complete opposite I'm afraid:
Irshad is the holder of an honors degree in history from the University of British Columbia. In 1990, she won the Governor-General’s medal for top graduate – the first humanities student to earn this distinction at UBC. After graduation, she became legislative aide to a member of parliament, press secretary to the Ontario Minister for Women’s Issues and speechwriter for the first female leader of a Canadian political party. In-between, she entered the media as a national affairs editorialist for the Ottawa Citizen, the youngest person to sit on the editorial board of a Canadian daily newspaper. [...]

Consistent with her affinity for education, Irshad has just been appointed a Mentor for the Pierre Elliot Trudeau Foundation in Montreal. In that capacity, she guides younger scholars to think strategically about human rights and public policy.
riane said:
All over the Muslim world, the most important reason as to why a Muslim woman wears the headscarf is because it is part of our faith. Allah has commanded us to, just as He has regulated many other aspects of our lives. If that reasoning is not good enough for you, I can understand why. Without a proper understanding of the deep devotion a Muslim has for Allah, the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth, such reasoning would seem insufficient.
With respect, that's not a reason. That's "my daddy told me so." Manji encourages you to think critically and freely on this:
Manji talking directly on the hijab

In France they approved a law that forbids public servants and teachers in public schools to wear veils and remarkable religious signs. What’s your opinion about this?

Irshad Manji: As a North-American (Manji actually lives in Canada, nvdv) I don’t think it should be a crime to present yourself as a person of faith. As long as you are not infringing upon de basic rights of other people, and as long as it is in fact a choice, people may wear what they want. The real problem is that in to many cases the wearing of a hijab is not a choice. It is imposed upon women by the men in their life. According a survey a few days before the acceptance of that law in France, a majority of the Muslim women said that they supported the ban on the hijab. Not because they opposed the hijab, but because they opposed the violence and the intimidation that they experienced at the hands of men who insisted that they wear the hijab. A lot of Muslim men consider their wife as a property. Women in this part of the world have the choice to make up their own mind. In to many parts of the Muslim world, including the Muslim communities in the West, they have no choice. I want to make my own choice.

Do Muslims consider women as inferior?

Irshad Manji: Yes, I think most Muslims do, and in fact they are in a inferior position. Many Muslim women will not consider themselves as inferior but wear a veil because they feel as dignified human beings. Because they want to protect themselves against staring and judging by men. If women are so dignified, why is it the burden of women to cover up, in order to protect themselves from the stares of men? Why can’t be accepted from men to control their own instincts or animal behaviour? This is a question that I have never heard a satisfactory answer from a Muslim women. And I will continue to ask that question. We urgently need an operation ‘Ijtihad’ to liberate Muslim women from their inferior status.
riane said:
Take into account that Muslims equate the purpose of their lives with the worship of their Creator, and perhaps wearing the headscarf would make a bit more sense. Our moral and spiritual compasses are aligned with pleasing our Creator in all that we do - from maintaining our five daily prayers to our career choice, as well as the values we instill in our children. Everything in a Muslim's life should be geared into one being the best representative of Allah on this Earth, and the headscarf is part of that.
But why? Because you're told so? This is where people need to think critically and rationally for themselves and not follow something blindly.
riane said:
Have a read of the following article. Amal Awad is by far a much better representative of an educated, articulate Muslim woman than Irshad Manji.
That is irrelevant - you should address her argument, not her.

But even (because I'm in an argumentative mood today) if I take that point seriously, which I should not, her education, knowledge, (global) experience, and most important her ability to think critically and rationally is highly credible. I do not know Amal Awad's education and experience so I cannot comment.

The thing is, when Islam finally does advance through this difficult stage, she will be a hero, not the minority. I admire the woman greatly. She is bringing rationality and clear thinking to her faith to make it better for everyone.
riane said:
Whenever the spotlight turns on the Muslim community, it is usually in relation to a negative act: terrorism, local crime or accusations of Islamic demagogy. Muslims seem to find themselves at the centre of every problem - the obscure or negative is magnified and, like in some grotesque circus show, Muslims become the "other".
Yes that is unfortunate. With tolerance, and reform where needed of the Islamic faith, I'm sure things will become more positive.
riane said:
It bewilders me that Muslims are singled out more than any other religious group. Is religion OK only as long as it's the "Astrayan" way?
Oh no, don't get me wrong. I mean, I don't like any religious institutions.
riane said:
So I ask again: what is it about this dress that alarms people?
Refer to everything I have said above. Remember this isn't just about a piece of cloth. Of course some women don't mind wearing it per se. This is about women being irrationally and inequitably forced into doing something that they damn well shouldn't have to do.
riane said:
A woman should be free to wear a headscarf without fear of censure or prejudice. That is what freedom in Australia is about.
I'm not in support of banning it.

----
NB. Despite how rigorously I put forward my arguments (and will continue to do so) I know that it can be somewhat of a sensitive issue when dealing with religion. I don't believe I have discussed this with you before. But I would like to say that I mean no disrespect. I hope that, whatever I have to say, it can be said politely and without (or minimal) offence caused.
 
Last edited:

snapperhead

Has decided to retire
Joined
Sep 14, 2003
Messages
3,018
Location
AD1 @ BMGS
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
just to throw some more fuel for thought onto the fire

what would be the penalty for wearing the headscarf if it were banned? and how would it be enforced?

BTW in response to above post by MS...scholary qualifications (not academic qualifications) in a Muslim sense does not include solely degrees from university....its more to do with knowledge of Islam, knowledge of the Koran, who you studied under, what school of thought you are from etc.
This is why some of the above sources are controversial as they are not acknowledged as being valid by the community they are supposedly representing
This is why the Islamic community is Australia is so polarised as the scholarly qualifications of the experts (as was seen by Howards little get together) are sketchy (from an Islamic POV) at best..

Another example of Western arrogance or ignorance maybe??



MS said:
did not choose her to represent the views of Muslim women. I posted that interview to show:

(a) evidence of religious, social conditioning through the unjustified foundations of tradition and fear;
(b) how I see a liberated, rational and modern Islamic woman should be;
(c) that the young generation of Muslims are more open and receptive to thinking critically about their religion and not following it as dogma.
sorry, that made me laugh.....
 
Last edited:

soha

a splendid one to behold
Joined
Mar 9, 2004
Messages
2,996
Location
Living it up in the Hills
Gender
Female
HSC
2004
banning the head scalf in public schools will just cause a whole heap of students to leave school
auburn girls, beverly hills high, bankstown girls high etc etc
they would just enroll in private schools and there would be a huge demand and eventually they'd make more muslim schools etc etc
 

MoonlightSonata

Retired
Joined
Aug 17, 2002
Messages
3,645
Gender
Female
HSC
N/A
snapperhead said:
BTW in response to above post by MS...scholary qualifications (not academic qualifications) in a Muslim sense does not include solely degrees from university....its more to do with knowledge of Islam, knowledge of the Koran, who you studied under, what school of thought you are from etc.
This is why some of the above sources are controversial as they are not acknowledged as being valid by the community they are supposedly representing
This is why the Islamic community is Australia is so polarised as the scholarly qualifications of the experts (as was seen by Howards little get together) are sketchy (from an Islamic POV) at best..
Read her qualifications. They are just as valid. Besides which she does have knowledge of Islam, the Koran etc. The fact that she may have brought her modern day university learning to shed light on the situation means that she is able to view the faith without as much traditional bias.

Also, as I mentioned, the attitudes of a majority don't prove what is right.

snapperhead said:
Another example of Western arrogance or ignorance maybe??
Ad hominem attacks are for pre-schoolers :)

snapperhead said:
sorry, that made me laugh.....
In litigation we have a submission called "no case to answer." I think that an appropriation of that term might be relevant in the light of posts such as the above.
 

tempco

...
Joined
Aug 14, 2003
Messages
3,835
Gender
Male
HSC
2004
MoonlightSonata said:
Read her qualifications. They are just as valid. Besides which she does have knowledge of Islam, the Koran etc. The fact that she may have brought her modern day university learning to shed light on the situation means that she is able to view the faith without as much traditional bias.
hrm, i don't agree with that. while she obviously must have gained critical thinking skills and such, "ijtihad" (her use of that worse is loose beyond belief) involves both reason/logic AND (not and/or, AND) an understanding of the primary (quran and the actions of mohammed) and secondary sources of islamic jurisprudence. the latter also involves going to an educational institution (usually a university) and attaining one of the many degrees (islamic law is so complex/detailed that it would be impossible to have a "crash course" in it) from prominent universities (e.g. al-azhar university) within the middle east/africa (which is recognised worldwide).

so imo, her qualifications (both in islam and in secular studies) pale in comparison to the qualifications of those whose opinions she is challenging.

a more accurate person fitting the label of a "reformist" would be tariq ramadan.


irshad manji said:
According a survey a few days before the acceptance of that law in France, a majority of the Muslim women said that they supported the ban on the hijab. Not because they opposed the hijab, but because they opposed the violence and the intimidation that they experienced at the hands of men who insisted that they wear the hijab. A lot of Muslim men consider their wife as a property. Women in this part of the world have the choice to make up their own mind. In to many parts of the Muslim world, including the Muslim communities in the West, they have no choice. I want to make my own choice.
i'd love to see this survey. seriously, i would.

and as for that comment regarding women being men's "property", i know that this does happen in pakistani/bangladeshi communities. however, it doesn't happen as often as in lebanese/saudi/syrian/iraqi communities. now, how does that work? wouldn't "traditional bias" have to be more prevalent in areas were islam was founded, as opposed to other areas? seeing that she's from pakistan, it's understandable that she was exposed to male dominance within the family - that's how the pakistani culture is constructed.

one nifty thing about the hijab is the fact that it identifies you as a muslim. if you do wear the scarf, it's less likely you'd be invited for a drink, or approached by the opposite sex looking for dates (or even being subject to advances by them), etc - all of which are unacceptable in islam. from what i've seen, women wearing the hijab are treated with more respect in public than their counterparts. contrary to popular belief, wearing the hijab does make life easier. i mean, muslim women wearing the scarf don't even have to fix up their hair in the morning!

for me, it's my name - muhummed. once i've got that across, the same things that are experienced by muslim women wearing the hijab applies to me (except maybe the respect bit :rolleyes:)

i'll look up a bit more on irshad's opinions regarding things other than the scarf - see what she has to say.
 
Last edited:

MoonlightSonata

Retired
Joined
Aug 17, 2002
Messages
3,645
Gender
Female
HSC
N/A
tempco said:
hrm, i don't agree with that. while she obviously must have gained critical thinking skills and such, "ijtihad" (her use of that worse is loose beyond belief) involves both reason/logic AND (not and/or, AND) an understanding of the primary (quran and the actions of mohammed) and secondary sources of islamic jurisprudence. the latter also involves going to an educational institution (usually a university) and attaining one of the many degrees (islamic law is so complex/detailed that it would be impossible to have a "crash course" in it) from prominent universities (e.g. al-azhar university) within the middle east/africa (which is recognised worldwide).

so imo, her qualifications (both in islam and in secular studies) pale in comparison to the qualifications of those whose opinions she is challenging.
Enough weighing up with the qualifications. Quite frankly, as I have stated, it is irrelevant for our argument. It's time to get down to reason.

Women must wear a piece of clothing that covers their body (for the purposes of inhibiting indecent thoughts in men). That is simply a silly, old literalist reading of a religious text. When a religious text clashes with reason it is best to reject those portions which are against the faculty of the mind. If a book tells you that "stoning people for stealing is okay", then it is best to reject that part of it. If a book tells you that "gay people are bad", then it is best to reject that part of it.

Likewise, the part of a book that tells women they must cover up for those purposes should also be rejected. There is a point where religion becomes dogma. This can allow it to become dangerous, antiquated and irrational.


Ancillary note for your own interest
tempco said:
a more accurate person fitting the label of a "reformist" would be tariq ramadan.
From that same source:
"Other charges levelled against him in French media is that he is sexist, and a reactionary Islamist. More fundamentally, his attitude towards European legal and democratic institutions is dubious at best because of his insistence that Muslims should literally respect the Qur'an and sharia, and that there would be no incompatibility between those and the secular democratic society. This conflict is nevertheless quite explicitly recognised by the European Court of Human Rights, which said that "The Court concurs (…) that sharia is incompatible with the fundamental principles of democracy" (13/02/2003)."
If this is true then he is not exactly a reformist, is he? "[Critics] accuse him as being 'the master of double talk,' saying one thing to the non-Muslim public, and the opposite to the Muslim audience."
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 2)

Top