Muslim People in Australia (2 Viewers)

[tempco]

It's never the woman's fault! But, she should have covered up. But, I must stress, it wasn't her fault! Still, she could have taken the proper precautions. However, in no way was she at fault! Etc. (well, that's the impression that I get, anyway).

That's a fairly common view amongst the social conservatives, though. There is nothing 'Islamic' about it, really.

Edit: Sorry about the negativity.

on an individual level, what a rape victim is wearing has nothing to do with rape. rapists (at the time of their offence) are mentally dysfunctional. clothes would be the last thing on the rapist's mind. people tend to simplify the matter (omg the rape victim was wearing mini skirt, right?), just like the hijab, and that doesn't help at all.

the punishment for rape (in an islamic state) is the same as adultery (if the rapist is married): stoning. if he/she is not married, the punishment is 100 lashes.

 

[malkin86]

Thanks for the response, tempco and Gen , I really appreciate it. ... Just a really horrible nagging thought - If the victim of the rape is married, is it seen that she has been unfaithful and is therefore subject to the stoning penalty? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

 

[tempco]

If the victim of the rape is married, is it seen that she has been unfaithful and is therefore subject to the stoning penalty? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

no!

that's wrong on so many levels. why should she be punished for something she was forced to do?

it's quite frightening how many people who don't know much about islam can think of it in such a way (no offence, malkin86). and it's not uncommon at all, unfortunately.

 

[malkin86]

I am very sorry for offending you, tempco. Thankyou for answering my question - it was just a really horrible, nagging thought - I had heard that in Nigeria, that that was the case - rape victims being stoned for adultery.

 

[tempco]

I am very sorry for offending you, tempco. Thankyou for answering my question - it was just a really horrible, nagging thought - I had heard that in Nigeria, that that was the case - rape victims being stoned for adultery.

no offence taken. i'm quite used to people saying things like that, anyway.

yes, i'm afraid that many things like that do happen in nigeria, pakistan, iran, etc - all of which are countries that are populated by many muslims. i mean, there's even a case in pakistan where a woman was court-ordered (village "court", mind you) to be raped by three men because her brother had apparently raped another village's woman (or something along those lines - but the accusation against him didn't hold water). people may look at this case and think - "oh, so that's how islam works." that's completely wrong though - according to islam, the three rapists and those involved with the "sentence" should be punished.

these unfortunate incidences are usually because of corrupt authority, cultural practices and plain stupidity. since most of these countries aren't exactly developed, there's no way of the actual government (if it even exists) to maintain order in certain areas (and in some cases, esp iran, the government itself is despotic and corrupt).

 

[malkin86]

How is a rape victim viewed/treated in Islam? Is it a great shame for the family, or is she just allowed to recover in peace?

 

[tempco]

How is a rape victim viewed/treated in Islam? Is it a great shame for the family, or is she just allowed to recover in peace?

victims are treated as victims. i mean, if the best way to recover is through rehabilitation, or by seeking help from trained professionals, then the victim would be encouraged to seek help.

as for it being a great shame for the family, as far as islam is concerned, there is no shame - she did nothing wrong. islam emphasised a lot on family, so support from family is paramount. and i'm sure there are plenty of muslim "sisters" (other muslim women are considered "sisters" in islam - all muslims are part of a larger family) who are willing to help.

 

[somechick]

How is a rape victim viewed/treated in Islam? Is it a great shame for the family, or is she just allowed to recover in peace?

Qur'ân: "And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations) - flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors" (24:4)

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Qur'ân: "And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations) - flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors" (24:4)

 

[Generator]

Oh no, Moonlight, you mustn't roll your eyes. Not being a woman or a muslim means that you cannot truly comprehend what is being suggested!

 

[tempco]

it's ok. you can roll your eyes till you drop.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

it's ok. you can roll your eyes till you drop.

You're not going to flog me with eighty stripes?

 

[tempco]

You're not going to flog me with eighty stripes?

hell no. i've got quite a bit of accounting work to get through. wouldn't be able to spare the time even if i wanted to flog the living daylights out of you.

 

[somechick]

I'm sure that had the Quran been written in moonlight's intellectual tradition (enlightenment rationalism), in scientific bits and codes he, along with billions of people would not have understood a word of it today, since scientific discovery (and hence its reasoning) is in constant flux. The point is, it was recited simplisitically for a purpose. Perhaps in a few centuries there will be other scientific discoveries which completely dismantle current traditions of rationalism, and even then, you would still be able to read it.

Besides, the english translation of the arabic verse can have different connotations in each language. This is a postmodernist theory: meaning is not universal hence it will be received differently in context.
That's why no matter what we post here, it will always be read according to the context. It is rather encouraged that people read the arabic, but since that is not possible, we try to do our best.

I'm sure also, he would have rolled his eyes even if it said the opposite "let the man be congratulated for his victory over the female".

But i'm more than proud of the original, at the power given to females.
Justice is justice, even if it isn't an eye for an eye. Can you imagine if it had said "take the man to the court of law, read him his rights of silence, a lawyer, anything they say or do will be used against him, and in the court he shall be qeustioned according to the western ideologies and principles which will be developed later in the 17th century by theorists such as Kant, Bentham, Rosseau, which itself will be later called to question by the theories of Foucault who will say that power is given to a minority and not with the people and then that itself will be questioned later by 21st century " etc ??
Point is, anything created by humans is not universal, such as law, hence why westerners think others are so "barbaric", when these "barbarian" s' philosphical developments have been denied to them for centuries.

 

[somechick]

Oh no, Moonlight, you mustn't roll your eyes. Not being a woman or a muslim means that you cannot truly comprehend what is being suggested!

I know that this was meant to be in jest, but what the hell. Here i go again.

My point from another thread was that people who believe themselves alien to a culture will experience it according to their own methods of understanding. For example, when you go outback you will see native Aboriginals in their culture: they are somewhat agrarian in the way they will eat and live off the land. Our methods, in the cities, is to 'purchase' commodities. A stance here would be "why are they eating off the land when they can go and get it effortlessly pre-packaged kilometres away in town?"

Furthermore, my point was (before in the other thread) that you are not WILLING to understand by your limitations of prejudice, and unless you are willing to drop that for a few seconds of objectivity you will perhaps understand a culture not according to your own codes of knowledge, but maybe through experience you will be more accepting. But since you are male, you won't wear a hijab, and since you don't (seem ) to like muslims much, you will never converse with one in real life and get to know them. They, somewhat like the Aboriginals, will be the "Other", alien in your ultimate world.

 

[Generator]

You talk of understanding, yet your posts are loaded with however many broadsides against westerners and other related yet pathetic generalisations that I cannot help but doubt that you are as 'wordly' as you claim to be (that 'illustrating' example of indigenous Australian's is a case in point).

For what's it worth, I'm not against muslim's, merely those (be they christian, muslim, communist, neoliberal, man, woman etc.) who believe that they are somewhat 'enlightened', despite the fact that their arguments are so frustratingly warped that it isn't funny.

I should add that in no way am I ashamed to be a secular, socially-liberal Australian, despite the fact that some on this forum seem to be belittling such a frame of mind.

 

[somechick]

You talk of understanding, yet your posts are loaded with however many broadsides against westerners and other related yet pathetic generalisations that I cannot help but doubt that you are as 'wordly' as you claim to be (that 'illustrating' example of indigenous Australian's is a case in point).

For what's it worth, I'm not against muslim's, merely those (be they christian, muslim, communist, neoliberal, man, woman etc.) who believe that they are somewhat 'enlightened', despite the fact that their arguments are so frustratingly warped that it isn't funny.

I should add that in no way am I ashamed to be a secular, socially-liberal Australian, despite the fact that some on this forum seem to be belittling such a frame of mind.

Excuse that example, but i try to be very simplistic in my posts, because nobody will read them if it is pure theory, or long. So in trying to be simplisitic in my posts, i understand that some people wont get it. Perhaps you are TOO enlightened to the point of overdrawn pride?
Moreover LOL I never said that i was more "worldly" or enlightened than you are.
I couldn't care less. What i was trying to establish was to counter your arguement, as you do mine. It is not a question of "who is smarter than who", and i'm sure you have much more academic achievements than I. I dont say i'm more enlightened than you are, but i'm not exactly going to dumb myself down to the level of preaching to you, and why SHOULD you be ashamed of secularism? I neithier said that all "atheists are going to hell!" blah blah blah because , again, i dont believe that and i don't care about that. But if you are going to present an arguement which i believe is somewhat false, i am going to argue.
I know that you have implied that i'm a stupid, LOL but i don't go and say the same thing to you, do I? If my arguement was warped, tell me WHERE so i can make it more simple. Where did i generalise? Instead of criticising me and maintaining an elitist position, why dont you criticise the POINTS of the arguement?
Also, I love Australia ok, and i don't give a sod if you think i'm some kind of anti-westener person. I dont even want to stoop to the level of having to try to 'prove' this to you.

 

[Generator]

I railed against what I thought to be a twisted (and at times ignorant) argument, not stupidity. Don't confuse the two, because at no stage did I imply that you were stupid.

Moreover LOL I never said that i was more "worldly" or enlightened than you are.

You talk of understanding, yet your posts are loaded with however many broadsides against westerners and other related yet pathetic generalisations that I cannot help but doubt that you are as 'wordly' as you claim to be (that 'illustrating' example of indigenous Australian's is a case in point).

i.e., Despite your constant calls for one to be 'objective' and understanding, you yourself are hardly the paramount of virtue in that regard. That is my only true gripe with your manner of argument (the arguments themselves, though, are another matter).

Also, I love Australia ok, and i don't give a sod if you think i'm some kind of anti-westener person. I dont even want to stoop to the level of having to try to 'prove' this to you.

Stoop to a level that you are already at? See:

But since you are male, you won't wear a hijab, and since you don't (seem ) to like muslims much, you will never converse with one in real life and get to know them. They, somewhat like the Aboriginals, will be the "Other", alien in your ultimate world.

 

[mr EaZy]

I railed against what I thought to be a twisted (and at times ignorant) argument, not stupidity. Don't confuse the two, because at no stage did I imply that you were stupid.





i.e., Despite your constant calls for one to be 'objective' and understanding, you yourself are hardly the paramount of virtue in that regard. That is my only true gripe with your manner of argument (the arguments themselves, though, are another matter).


Stoop to a level that you are already at? See:

i dont get it

all she was saying was broaden your horizons- u can never say that you have understood another culture to the nth degree - it doesnt happen. because cultures evolve; and to understand the culture of Islam in its original sense- you wont get that here in Australia.

and just how does:

But since you are male, you won't wear a hijab, and since you don't (seem ) to like muslims much, you will never converse with one in real life and get to know them. They, somewhat like the Aboriginals, will be the "Other", alien in your ultimate world.

prove that some chick loves Australia??

 

[Generator]

mr eazy,

But since you are male, you won't wear a hijab, and since you don't (seem ) to like muslims much, you will never converse with one in real life and get to know them. They, somewhat like the Aboriginals, will be the "Other", alien in your ultimate world.

An attack on my character.

Also, I love Australia ok, and i don't give a sod if you think i'm some kind of anti-westener person. I dont even want to stoop to the level of having to try to 'prove' this to you.

Obviously what I wrote was considered to be an attack on somechick's character.

I really don't know what you were trying to suggest at the end of that post, to tell the truth.

---

i dont get it

all she was saying was broaden your horizons- u can never say that you have understood another culture to the nth degree - it doesnt happen. because cultures evolve; and to understand the culture of Islam in its original sense- you wont get that here in Australia.

This isn't just about Islam. As I was quite clear in saying, calling for one to display a greater degree of understanding isn't the greatest thing that one can do when they themselves are presenting a relatively narrow point of view.