Muslim People in Australia (2 Viewers)

[katie_tully]

Yes, I see. That must have been why the recent Iraqi election was so popular. Coz Iraqi's hate democracy and prefer oppression. loler.

 

[davin]

can i point out that North Korea also SHUT UP as soon as iraq got invaded? kim jong il has been a lot quieter in the last few years. and of course, Libya turned over the weapons program they claimed they didn't have to the U.S.

the effects of going into iraq extend beyond iraq itself. heck, look at what happened in Lebanon, and the attempts to push Syria out. If i recall correctly, prior to having to worry about the U.S., Syria's policy when people in Lebanon would get noisy was to destroy a village, but my memory might be off on that one.

 

[veterandoggy]

uhh, davin? i think the main reason for Syria's withdrawal was that the lebanese prime minister got assasinated, and they were among the prime suspects. im not saying the invasion into iraq wasnt a thought that came into their mind, but that idea alone wouldnt have been enough, because had america entered lebanon they would have faced stiff opposition from both lebanon and syria.

 

[davin]

and, of course, syria has always been one to "do the right thing"
my point wasn't that america was going to go into lebanon, just that there are countries that have changed policy in ways thati'd think are for the better, because of concerns of what america would do now that the u.s. isn't just sitting off with no attention paid to that part of the world

 

[banco55]

and, of course, syria has always been one to "do the right thing"
my point wasn't that america was going to go into lebanon, just that there are countries that have changed policy in ways thati'd think are for the better, because of concerns of what america would do now that the u.s. isn't just sitting off with no attention paid to that part of the world

I'm not sure that's correct. Arguably countries in the middle east were a lot more intimdated prior to the Iraq war. Everyone knows now that it will be next to impossible to mobilizie public and congressional support for another war. Not to mention there are no more troops because so many are bogged down in Iraq.

 

[sam04u]

Why is it the minute I leave this thread... it shifts closer to fallacies and further away from the truth?

Who said the iraqi people are uneducated? Why would you make that "assumption"?

Here is a report from Bill Evers; who was put in charge of re-educating these people. (Which basically means he was paid to pose as a teacher while he brainwashes them into thinking a democratic country is in their best interest).
Bill Evers Report.

" Iraq has a tradition of valuing education and a reputation for having produced, in the pre-Saddam era, some of the best architects, doctors and engineers in the Arab Middle East. "

There you go; I hope you feel stupid now. You would believe anything that is said on the media...

Also who are you to judge the entire WORLD-WIDE muslim community based on the actions of a few tribal men? Who have experienced so much pain from the U.S.A... Including the destruction of their countries... their families... and their livelihoods.

If that was the case I could say the anglo-saxon Australians are racist; uneducated, rioting, criminals. Because if an estimated 5,000 Anglo-Saxon Australians can be drawn to a riot in a matter of a few hours. I could accurately assume that throughout Australia. That millions of these people exist.

See im sick of this racist bullshit! Why hate on islam? Because of the actions of a few terrorists? I already told you... some men have had it hard. I'l tell you now... its not easy for a man to come home... can't get a job... can't put food on the table... and the only reason he's in that position is because of America. That man would go crazy! and so would I.... so he fights to defend his people, his country...(or whats left of it)... his country is exploited... his people are exploited... then you call HIM a TERRORist? FOR FIGHTING BACK? With the only thing he has!? HIS LIFE! To me this man's a hero... I'm not talking about the 9/11 or the Bus bombings... but the ones who fight on their borders? like the lebanese freedom fighters?


Why would some of you make the intentions of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA to be so pure? And Caring?

That's BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT! They don't care about IRAQ! They DONT CARE ABOUT YOU! See the Japanese would be able to understand the muslims and what they're going through. Thats why i respect them.... I wish I could say the same for some of you. I'm not "ANTI-AMERICA" ... Im'a be going to KFC tonight or tommorow... and trust me when I tell you I'm not gonna contradict myself.

But thats how it is... if you don't stand up for yourself; your gonna get bitch slapped... Just Let them fight back... Don't Judge them... You're not good enough too!

I've see what some of you are writing in other threads... shit like... "i dont care about poverty".
I hope you bitches feel poverty... just being soo HUNGRY... being COLD... NOT having clothes to wear....

You can't judge these people till you know what they've experienced and WHY!? They have the MOST OIL in the world! They should be rich!? You want to blame Sadam? They aren't any richer now that sadam is out!? True?

Rule No.1: America doesn't care about them!?
They're just giving them enough so they can shut-up while they "STEAL" their Oil.

Muslims are good people... im not saying the religion is good and the people aren't... im saying the people are good people! with moral and ethical values. Which some of you will never understand!. I know muslim people... because I am muslim. Most muslims are compassionate and caring... After Ramadan all those who can are expected to give money to those less fortunate... These people don't want war... they want what they deserve... 2/9ths of the population is MUSLIM... Don't judge so many people on a few peoples actions.... Judging Islam for the actions of a few is like judging the entire world on the actions of a few. (It's stupid);

Islamic people aren't Anti-Technology... Only reason Muslim countries don't have these things is because they don't have it in their countries... and they can't afford it. :worried:
That's like saying.. "somalians are so stupid they don't like food"....

I guess the media has instilled so much hate into you people... i can't reverse it... regardless of how hard I try... You people should be ashamed of yourselves...

If even the intelligent can't get past the lies of the media... how can i expect regular people too....?

Just think before you speak next time.... maybe.... hopefully...
Or continue regurgitating what the media feeds you... because we muslims obviously are anti-christianity and everything else... (even though im showing you.. & telling you... we aren't) but keep believing it.... if you have to....

-Sam

 

[Nietzsche]

lololololol

Yeah...

yah, america doesn't give a shit about iraq...that's why it has spent the last 3 years rebuilding iraqi infrastructure, and giving them a chance at experiencing democracy.

Yeah, they've done a really good job too. Any more American liberation and Iraq will implode.

coz you know, democracy is so much worse than having an oppressive dictator that goes on genocidal rampages.

How would you know? At least under Saddam the Iraqi's had electricity, food, clean water, education, a roof over their heads and relative security.

 

[banco55]

I'm sorry but saying a country produced the best scientists, engineers in the "arab middle east " isn't saying very much. You'll notice they didn't just say the "middle east" because Israel has a lot better track record of producing engineers, scientists etc. despite its small size.

 

[davin]

you mean relative security unless you were a kurd. or probably a shiite. or had views that saddam didn't like. or weren't an olympic athlete that didn't win. or weren't one of the girls taht was randomly grabbed by saddam's son (uday, i think) to be raped and abused and only possibly let go.

its a different type of lack of secutiry, but its a lack of security with many working to try to end that.


sam04u, i like how your responce to what you felt were people using stereotypes and assumptions about muslims was to make stereotypes and assumptions about americans.
which is not to say i don't think that there are good muslims...but why is it you focus on the ones that are attacking iraqi civilians, and not, say, the thousands of iraqis that have joined the army or police at great risk from those iraqis that you claim are fighting for freedom, or the thousands that have been working in various political capabilities, or the millions that risked being murdered to go out and vote in each election.

if they were just going after american and other coalition troops, that would be one thing, but killing civilians, killing iraqis working to rebuild the country, thats how you define freedom? thats trying to make things better?

 

[sam04u]

Alright fair... but I never said "american people" I said America.

To an extent.. if something isn't completely beneficial to America.. it will not pass congress. (So i'm right in a sense by generalising on her actions).

You're right there.. some muslims are so confused... they kill their own people... why? because they see these people as "helping" America steal their oil. They see these people as helping america steal whats theirs... their country! its their Iraq... not OURS... not America's....
Some human rights were exploited pre-saddam... Some human rights are still exploited!?

The thing is... many muslims fight...
The lady who faces discrimination... EVERY day.. yet still wears her Hijab... she fights...
The man who dresses moderately... feels discrimination at work to prey 5 times a day... he fights...
The young man or woman... who seeks out the confused... and shows them the true meaning of islam... and brings understanding to those who do not know... they fight... (like me)...

But then again everyone discriminates... the jewish have it hard too... so do many other people... like germans... russians.... so many people...

It's just that... my people are being killed... so I can't ignore this... I can't let people say "its JUST" or "its FAIR" or... "they're getting what they want"...
because its not true....
Maybe one day... if im in a position of power... or I had more exposure.. i can educate people on a more broader scale...

Islam Advocates love and compassion.... never hate... I can't control the actions of the entire world... but the muslim people who do these things have reasons... some of them i don't agree with... some im empathetic towards... and some I respect.

 

[Nietzsche]

you mean relative security unless you were a kurd. or probably a shiite. or had views that saddam didn't like. or weren't an olympic athlete that didn't win. or weren't one of the girls taht was randomly grabbed by saddam's son (uday, i think) to be raped and abused and only possibly let go.

As opposed to no security for no one.

its a different type of lack of secutiry, but its a lack of security with many working to try to end that.

But it's not going to work!

 

[davin]

and i'm sure no one thought that a country started by settlements of exported convicts would work

and sam04u, my point was just that you seem to be showing more sympathy for those killing other iraqis than those being killed like that. they're not striking at military, they're terrorising civilians. when car bombs go off near marketplaces, or a mosque is attacked, how is that helping iraqis?
and honestly, the best way to get oil was to work WITH saddam

 

[sam04u]

Bro... you'll never understand how much sorrow... I feel for those who die... innocently...

But its easier to be a victim then to STAND UP... against the ODDS and fight for what you believe in.... a strong man knows this... a woman being abused by her husband that stands upto him knows this...

You gotta remember these are people who have had it hard... they've suffered... unfairly... how rational can they be?

Some are wrong... I feel sorry for the victims.. and their families...
I see that you understand... you aren't an idiot... you understand what its like... and why they do it...

Some of the people who do these things don't know better... some are irrational... some may have a mental disorder... I can't account for every one of them...

But you... Sometimes I don't understand why you say some things... You know America want's "security"; Now they control the Oil in Iraq, they got what they want... they don't have to deal with saddam or Uday... or anyone... They just take what they want....

 

[sam04u]

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[davin]

and yet at this point in time america isn't getting any oil


anyway, you are, i think at best, mixing tragic characters with sympathetic ones. example: someone that was abused as a child abuses their own children when they're an adult.
its tragic, yes, but that doesn't mean taht there should be sympathy for the person abusing, even given what they went through in the past. i don't believe whats happened in the past gives an excuse for the choices one makes in the future.

you don't, on the other hand, say, excuse the U.S. because policy is being driven by the aftermath of 9/11 still, and you don't say "well, they may ahve made a bad choice, but they're trying to respond to having gone through that, so you have to understand and not hold it against them".
the people that are doing the real fighting in Iraq for the sake of Iraq are those trying to rebuild the country.....you can look at that two ways, either because the U.S. is wanting to leave, they just need Iraq on its feet again first, or, at a minimum, it will be very clear that the U.S. is trying to interfere beyond what it said its goals were if Iraq is stable and peaceful but the U.S. is still there.

what colours the views of Muslims outside the arab world isn't just whats happening in the arab world, things like some actions of the insurgents in Iraq, or the acts of terrorism, its this attitude that what happened wasn't an absolute wrong, but taht there is some perspective that makes it understandable.

some actions are just wrong, no matter the justification.... and the lack of that statement from Muslims in the western world is what leads to them being associated with terrorist thought.

personally, if someone that claimed some association with me (ethnically, nationality, etc) did something that was wrong, in the sense of things like murder outright, my reaction is to distance myself, and argue against it, not try to justify it because i've got something in common with them.

 

[sam04u]

See; Thats the difference. I condone their actions to some extent. The freedom fighters in Lebanon (Which the MEDIA considers to be terrorists) I support them.

See who is it to decide they are doing wrong?

I condone the actions of 9/11;
I condone the bombing of any innocent civilians.
(I don't condone their intentions though) Do you get that?

You're looking at it in the wrong way; here is a proper analogy.

A kid gets abused as a child. (someone knows about this abuse);
One day the kid is about to be abused again.
So the Kid fights back and tries to end the abuse. Then the person who knows about the abuse argues the side of the person who abused the kid. The Kid then attacks that person as well.

That is how it should be looked at.

Have the Iraqis been abused? YES
Have the Palestinians been abused? YES
Have many Middle Eastern Countries been abused? YES

They're just fighting back... American ruins these countries... it funded and equipped taliban which ruined afghanistan.
It sold weapons to Iraq and Iran; spiralling the Iran and Iraq war.
It gives weapons free to Israel to attack Palestine; Lebanon etc.
It supports the israeli attacks on Palestine.
It recently hampered trades with most Middle Eastern countries.

Who is wrong? Think about the implications of what they are doing... they're killing millions of people...
Do you support the USA? Which country has it "given" democracy too?
How can these people FIGHT the U.S.A other then using their life as a weapon?

See you wont be able to answer my questions properly...

All muslims condone the attacks...
The thing is some of these people don't know what to do...

So to an extent... I do.. seperate myself from the small number of extremists...

Now Davin... honestly answer this... lets say... well now... imagine you are a... Palestinian.
You live in a small area which is left from the huge country your people once owned.. and fought endless wars for.
So... you accept this.. and try to achieve peace...
You don't build stereotypes... you accept what has been given to you.
Then one day... you come home and your parents are crying over the dinner table which you own... there is little food to go around... however you are used to this. Your parents the slowly explain to you... that your brother was killed in an ambush of "terrorists" by Israelis. You mourn... and continue with your life.. each day attending school... then one day at night... after work... you hear that your school was attacked... you run to your school and it is completely destroyed.
You have no school... you accept this... so you begin working... you work hard and long hours... one day... your house is attacked and your entire family is killed... you have nothing left... your family is dead... your house... destroyed...

Now what do you do?
Do you accept it? (thats a true story...)
Who do you blame?

 

[HotShot]

and, of course, syria has always been one to "do the right thing"
my point wasn't that america was going to go into lebanon, just that there are countries that have changed policy in ways thati'd think are for the better, because of concerns of what america would do now that the u.s. isn't just sitting off with no attention paid to that part of the world

just look at iran.... dont forget them....:rofl:

 

[davin]

sweet, i'm an infidel now.
deliberately targetting civilians to kill them is wrong, no matter who is doing it. doesn't matter if its islamic fundamentalists attacking on 9/11, or in Bali, London, or Madrid, or if its Palestinian suicide bombers in Israel, or if its Israel's policy to fire missles in the general vecinity of a terrorist if there are many innocent uninvolved civilians around him, or the massacre of Vietnamese by the U.S. forces (the name of which eludes me atm). Attacking civilians intentionally is always wrong.

Anyway, the past doesn't give people an excuse to do things, while it can provide a context. Because one group did one thingaht doesn't justify lashing out at another group. Or do you mean you would agree with the US attacking Iraq because Al-Queda attacked them, and therefore its ok cuz its all the same cuz they're all Arabic? America has hundreds of millions of people, its not some group that all has the same goals, and beyond that, any attack TARGETED against civilians is wrong... and I would hold that criticism to Israel's actions in the past as well.
If they want to fight the U.S., why don't they do so directly then? Go toward the military. Killing other Iraqis isn't fighting the U.S., and thats what is going on a lot over there....they're killing other Iraqis. Thats not right in any sense.

You give America far more sway than it has.... you don't blame Europe in there for how the middle eastern borders were drawn, or the dictators that have abused their people. Saddam brutalised his people. While I think they're on a road towards a better future now, I'll grant that thats a very debatable point. But you're acting as though everything was fine in that region until the U.S. went into Iraq.
Obviously one issue is oil....when the gov't has a source of money like that, they don't have to care about their citizens, and Saudi Arabia is a good example of that, and its why Saudi Arabia directs resentment within the country towards foreign targets to protect the royal family from being attacked directly.

However, i ask this....if you want whats best for the iraqis primarily, i assume you'd agree that that includes american forces out of Iraq. and i would agree taht that is key as well. However, why do you take a stance supporting all the violence there even though the longer there is that violence, the more Iraqis die from it directly, AND the longer american troops are there? The U.S. isn't leaving until Iraq is stable, at a minimum, so the sooner the violence ends, the sooner there is no arguement for the U.S. staying in the region.

 

[tempco]

sweet, i'm an infidel now.

Infidel = non-Muslim.

You're all infidels. Big deal.

However, i ask this....if you want whats best for the iraqis primarily, i assume you'd agree that that includes american forces out of Iraq. and i would agree taht that is key as well. However, why do you take a stance supporting all the violence there even though the longer there is that violence, the more Iraqis die from it directly, AND the longer american troops are there? The U.S. isn't leaving until Iraq is stable, at a minimum, so the sooner the violence ends, the sooner there is no arguement for the U.S. staying in the region.

Practically speaking, the Iraqis aren't going to roll over and forgive all the wrongs that have been done to them by the coalition army. It's kinda hard to do that when those championing democracy kill heaps of people, bust into a mosque and shoot down innocent worshippers and the like.

 

[ogmzergrush]

On the first, they're under investigation? What more can you do, it's 12 soldiers involved? You can't really judge everyone based on that, unless we're about to apply the same logic in the other direction and decide that everyone they're killing is obviously a terrorist anyway. But of course, that'd be pretty stupid, so I'm sure people over there realise that not all Americans are nutcases.

Regarding the mosque, bearing in mind that pretty much everyone who had anything to say in that article is probably lying through their teeth, and none of us have any way of telling,

The Americans insisted yesterday that they had raided the complex after receiving intelligence that it was being used to hold hostages, store weapons and harbour insurgents. "In our observation of the place and the activities that were going on, it's difficult for us to consider this a place of prayer," said Lieutenant Colonel Barry Johnson, a spokesman. "It was not identified by us as a mosque... I think this is a matter of perception." A brief US communique in the first hours after the incident said "no mosques were entered or damaged".

...

Iraqi police identified seven of the dead as members of the Mahdi army, a militia formed by the radical cleric Moqtada al-Sadr. Salam al Maliki, the transport minister who heads a group of 30 MPs loyal to Mr Sadr, said Shia leaders suspended discussions yesterday on forming a new government in protest at the assault.

seems to suggest at least a partial excuse for the action. Two things strike me about the article:

1) I can't really see Americans, as evil as they apparently are, really deciding to just bust into a mosque and blow people away for kicks.

2) I can't imagine that all these people really were just hanging out there to pray, though of course some probably were it seems peculiar that about one in five of them just happened to be from a radical militia.

Despite my criticisms, you make a point. People don't really seem to be giving the situation enough thought on both sides of the fence for the violence to stop any time soon.