Obama Addresses the Middle East (2 Viewers)

[Ben Netanyahu]

hi Jimmy

 

[Jessica14]

So? The ends does not justify the means if the means is murder, war and genocide, you delinquent fuck.

Ok guy, but you see, the thing is that it goes about doing that by building a fucking wall, starving the Palestinians, rounding them up into a tiny coastal strip and the then bombing the living fuck out of them. It refuses to let Palestinians in or out of territories as it pleases. FFS, are you blind or just a twat?

Did someone say something about conjecture? I think you're forgetting something...

 

[B_B_J]

Hey Jessica, you say you're neutral when it comes to the Israel Palestine issue. Yet your posts are very pro Israel.

 

[Jessica14]

Hey Jessica, you say you're neutral when it comes to the Israel Palestine issue. Yet your posts are very pro Israel.

Looking back, I would agree. Perhaps I just enjoy arguing the point with you and you've already posted the pro-Palestinian arguments. But I'm not about to actively support the destruction of either state.

 

[B_B_J]

Looking back, I would agree. Perhaps I just enjoy arguing the point with you and you've already posted the pro-Palestinian arguments. But I'm not about to actively support the destruction of either state.

WTF, I havnt even participated in this thread.

 

[JonathanM]

Hey Jessica, you say you're neutral when it comes to the Israel Palestine issue. Yet your posts are very pro Israel.

Are mine? Seriously, I'd like to know

Maybe I need to do a better job haha.

Reply coming soon nebs

 

[Jessica14]

WTF, I havnt even participated in this thread.

Yeah, I was talking about the no longer existant anti-Israeli group (and mainly Nebs/Ben N/David B). Unfortunately the English language does not have a word for you (pl) and I'm not using 'youse.'

Apologies, my friend.

 

[Jessica14]

Are mine? Seriously, I'd like to know

Maybe I need to do a better job haha.

Reply coming soon nebs

I will try harder.

 

[B_B_J]

lol.

 

[Ben Netanyahu]

Did someone say something about conjecture? I think you're forgetting something...

Oh ok I didn't realise that these things required proof. My mistake.

War, murder, genocide - Gaza War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Giant wall - Israeli West Bank barrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Giant wall v2 - Israel–Gaza Strip barrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Starvation - http://community.boredofstudies.org/495/light-offbeat-news/192989/gaza-situation-desperate.html
Confinement to tiny coastal strip - Gaza Strip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bombing the living fuck out of them - Gaza War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Border restrictions - Border restrictions hurting Gazas economic sustainability, UN officials warn

lol pwnt

 

[JonathanM]

These people don't have a historical connection anymore, since they're dead. I imagine that the term implies that they still exist. If not then it's a furfy term that has no place in this debate.

And your bringing up of pointless definitions doesn't do well to distract from the issue at hand: Who, out of the Arabs and the Jews, has greater claim to the land of Israel.

Oh God, lets not get into that! Another sub-topic altogether. But I'm happy to give my brief opinions on this. Prior to the first wave of Zionist settlers in the 1930's (of which there were hundreds of thousands, all of which settled Palestine 'legally' from land bought off the owners) undoubtedly the Palestinians had the greater claim to the land of Israel. I would argue that Jews have a greater spiritual claim to Israel than the Palestinians, but I always remove religion completely from my arguments - who cares what happened thousands of years ago, live in the now.

The Zionists chose Israel, not out of malice, going "oooh, lets get those nasty Palestinians" whilst rubbing their hands evilly with glee, but because they wanted it, the anti-Semitism of Europe, even before the Holocaust began, confirmed to them that there needed to be a Jewish state - and they took it. Unfair, illegitimate and in many cases, illegal. But as I said earlier, we live in the now. I can't take back what the Zionists did all the way back then - the new generation of Israelis can't help being born and sure as hell aren't going to go anywhere, they've been born and raised there, it's their home now too, now matter how illegitimate it may have been taken by their ancestors. We have over 7 million Israelis and they aren't all going to up and move for a moral obligation. They live there now, it's their home to. We have to deal with that and move on from there to reach a viable solution. You don't like this Nebs, you hate it and I can understand why, but are you able to see that the millions of people can't and aren't going to leave?

So? The ends does not justify the means if the means is murder, war and genocide, you delinquent fuck.

Swearing and insults just detract from your argument. I said earlier that there is no justice in this conflict - both sides have commited themselves to terrible things. There is only results. Maintaining a majority in your country is not something Israel started, it is done by almost every country, it is being done today in Australia, Britain and Israel, it was done during the Crusades, it was done during the Islamic Golden Age and it was done by the ancient Egyptians. There is no point to Israel existing in the first place if it is not a Jewish state, it has the right to maintain its majority through its 'official' methods, although I disagree with other methods which probably go down off the books to keep this majority.

Ok guy, but you see, the thing is that it goes about doing that by building a fucking wall, starving the Palestinians, rounding them up into a tiny coastal strip and the then bombing the living fuck out of them. It refuses to let Palestinians in or out of territories as it pleases. FFS, are you blind or just a twat?

True, Israel has done all this. It is an uncomfortable situation now. Let me give you this analogy (and I am in no way comparing the Palestinian people to animals), when you keep a dog in a cage for an extended period of time and treat it cruelly, if you are to release it, it will attack you, even if you've suddenly had a change of heart and wish to reconcile, the dog will no longer trust you - ever. When Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians, it was trying to reconcile, but the Palestinians had gone through to much and are now 'wild,' seeking vengeance out of a way out. They chose to continue the fight against Israel, even after such a huge, unconditional concession and to this day fight meaninglessly, firing strategically pointless rockets. They see no other way out of the situation, but if they were to cease fighting and to elect a responsible, representative Government then I can truly see a way forward to peace.

So what's your point? Are you trying to explain the Israeli logic in defense of Israel, or simply to describe to us what we already know? I'd say the former. It's a case of "I don't support Israel but I understand and support their logic."

There we go, you've got me in a nutshell. Although let me clarify, I understand why they need to do it, I understand their decision to do this for reasons I have mentioned already, but I do not support them doing it. Understanding and supporting are different. I have no reason to support the policy. I can understand it though. Two separate things.

Jesus Christ. No-one is impressed by long paragraphs that can be summarised in one or two sentences.

Through all your claptrap, one thing is discovered: The influx of Jews caused the Arabs to leave their homes. I'm not defending what the Arabs said or did back then, but responcibility falls back on the shoulders and immense noses of the Jews.

Ah, comrade, not everyone is as enlightened as you, I was dissecting Savak's post, not yours. True, Israel has a moral obligation to her defeated enemies (defeated of 1948) just as America had an obligation, which it fulfilled, to the Germans after WW2. Israel has not fulfilled its obligation, but then again, it has little means to fulfill many of its obligations, like returning all land and removing its Jewish majority, again, for reasons I have mentioned above.

Ah I see your logic! YOU ARE A VIGOROUS LITTLE TIGER, AREN'T YOU?
War displaces people. Therefore, suck shit Arab people. This has happened in the past, and it will happen again.

That's horseshit logic dude, and you know it. Example: Slavery in America. Before it was abolished it was like...the thing to do, man! I'm sure there were a tonne of assholes using your logic back then. It was bullshit then and it was bullshit now. Just because people have been displaced in wars prior does not mean it is the correct course of action to allow now.

Second, you cannot apply the term "war" and pretend that it's an excuse for moral wrongs and crimes. Things should never work that way.

Sorry, but this was a bit of a /facepalm paragraph. I'm glad you see my logic, and I think it's pretty good logic. You conclude your paragraph with "should never work that way," well, guess what sunshine, they do. That's life and it can suck majorly at times. You put a big stake on a risky bet and you lose, you lose all your money, you support the wrong side in a war, you get fucked over. Life

Hey cool, but see, your opinion based on conjecture, is worth shit.

Explain how it is conjecture, please.

Yes this I agree with.

Glad we can come to concessions, that's why I bother posting. Do you agree with the context that statement was made in, or are you just dissecting it and using it apart from its intended meaning?

 

[Jessica14]

Oh ok I didn't realise that these things required proof. My mistake.

War, murder, genocide - Gaza War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Giant wall - Israeli West Bank barrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Giant wall v2 - Israel–Gaza Strip barrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Starvation - http://community.boredofstudies.org...obama-addresses-middle-east/...desperate.html
Confinement to tiny coastal strip - Gaza Strip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bombing the living fuck out of them - Gaza War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Border restrictions - Border restrictions hurting Gaza�s economic sustainability, UN officials warn

lol pwnt

Dude, you're citing Wikipedia... Okay, okay, I use that site too.

But seriously, we should wait for the UN to complete their investigation into war crimes commited by Israel and Hamas in the Gaza War earlier this year to make any allegations that are supported by the appropriate authorities. Your sources are heresay-- IDF said, Hamas said...

 

[Sprangler]

These people don't have a historical connection anymore, since they're dead. I imagine that the term implies that they still exist. If not then it's a furfy term that has no place in this debate.

And your bringing up of pointless definitions doesn't do well to distract from the issue at hand: Who, out of the Arabs and the Jews, has greater claim to the land of Israel.

Is that question even relevant?
The Jews across the Middle East had led mostly peaceful lives in Arab/Muslim lands before 1948. Why would the first settlers have foreseen any problems? The two ethnic groups were both hoping to live together peacefully, which ended up in two competing nationalist movements in which the Arabs lost and got fucked over in a major war hours after the declaration of independence - then again in two other major wars, all directly initiated by the Arab nations.

So? The ends does not justify the means if the means is murder, war and genocide, you delinquent fuck.



Ok guy, but you see, the thing is that it goes about doing that by building a fucking wall, starving the Palestinians, rounding them up into a tiny coastal strip and the then bombing the living fuck out of them. It refuses to let Palestinians in or out of territories as it pleases. FFS, are you blind or just a twat?

So what's your point? Are you trying to explain the Israeli logic in defense of Israel, or simply to describe to us what we already know? I'd say the former. It's a case of "I don't support Israel but I understand and support their logic."

You seem to be implying that Israel have tried to or are trying to commit genocide against the entire Arab population in the Palestinian territories. That is just incorrect. Yes there is a wall, yes there are economic sanctions and restrictions on movement. You may not agree with it morally but it is effective in its goals which are to stop the murder of Israeli civilians by terrorists.

Jesus Christ. No-one is impressed by long paragraphs that can be summarised in one or two sentences.

Through all your claptrap, one thing is discovered: The influx of Jews caused the Arabs to leave their homes. I'm not defending what the Arabs said or did back then, but responcibility falls back on the shoulders and immense noses of the Jews.

Maybe indirectly, but there were factors on both sides which led to many Arabs leaving.

Ah I see your logic! YOU ARE A VIGOROUS LITTLE TIGER, AREN'T YOU?
War displaces people. Therefore, suck shit Arab people. This has happened in the past, and it will happen again.

That's horseshit logic dude, and you know it. Example: Slavery in America. Before it was abolished it was like...the thing to do, man! I'm sure there were a tonne of assholes using your logic back then. It was bullshit then and it was bullshit now. Just because people have been displaced in wars prior does not mean it is the correct course of action to allow now.

It's what happens in war.

Second, you cannot apply the term "war" and pretend that it's an excuse for moral wrongs and crimes. Things should never work that way.

Shouldn't but do.

 

[Jessica14]

Okay, I accept the points about the great big, dirty wall and the border restrictions.

 

[B_B_J]

So many jews ITT. Its making my head hurt.

 

[reboulle]

I think his speech was a step in the right direction. I happen to think Obama actually has his head screwed on the right way. Sure it's only words, but he knew how to reach his audience through quoting from the Holy books of Islam, Christianity and Judaism, and reference to the tale of Isra, etc.

He was acknowleding towards a race where too many preconceived notions have been entrenched within society's mind towards them. It's a small step, but a significant one and in the right direction. If Obama can make people aware that they should respect each other for their differences, I'm sure a lot of this conflict would ease. It may take a couple of hundred years for this to happen though, if it's possible....

 

[Ben Netanyahu]

Okay, I accept the points about the great big, dirty wall and the border restrictions.

Oh ok but you don't accept the points on the Gaza war or starvation or anything else I said? Wake the fuck up. Did you read the articles or links? None of that was sourced from www.ilovegazaandisraelaredirtycunts.com

 

[Ben Netanyahu]

They live there now, it's their home to. We have to deal with that and move on from there to reach a viable solution. You don't like this Nebs, you hate it and I can understand why, but are you able to see that the millions of people can't and aren't going to leave?

True. I acknowledge this. Newbies to the ongoing debate over this issue here at BoS would be well served to take a cursory glance at past threads. I advocate a two state solution. I support it. I do not suggest uprooting five year old children who have a fair authority to claim Israel as their home as much as Arab children. Issue is the division of Israel which is currently grossly unfair. So what we have is as follows:

~2,500,000 West Bank Arabs + 1,500,000 Gaza Strip Arabs + several millions displaced Arabs who have a greater historical claim owing to their ownership of the land prior to the Jewish invasion
~7,500,000 Israelis, several million of whom are Arab, who do not have a greater historical claim to the land as they, more or less, are an introduced species.

I argue that Arabs have a greater claim to the land. Therefore, within reason, they should receive more than their fair share of the land of Israel. West Bank + Golan Heights + East Jerusalem + Gaza + a little extra ought to be theirs. The Jews should more or less be entitled to everything else, so far as I can see.

Summary: Arabs deserve more than what they originally received.

both sides have commited themselves to terrible things.

You're trying to equate the two sides. This is not permissible. Admit that Israel is the aggressor or I'll be forced to pull statistics.

There is only results. Maintaining a majority in your country is not something Israel started, it is done by almost every country, it is being done today in Australia, Britain and Israel, it was done during the Crusades, it was done during the Islamic Golden Age and it was done by the ancient Egyptians. There is no point to Israel existing in the first place if it is not a Jewish state, it has the right to maintain its majority through its 'official' methods, although I disagree with other methods which probably go down off the books to keep this majority.

Don't compare Australia to Israel. Other than that, I don't quite understand the significance of your point.

True, Israel has done all this. It is an uncomfortable situation now. Let me give you this analogy (and I am in no way comparing the Palestinian people to animals), when you keep a dog in a cage for an extended period of time and treat it cruelly, if you are to release it, it will attack you, even if you've suddenly had a change of heart and wish to reconcile, the dog will no longer trust you - ever. When Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians, it was trying to reconcile, but the Palestinians had gone through to much and are now 'wild,' seeking vengeance out of a way out. They chose to continue the fight against Israel, even after such a huge, unconditional concession and to this day fight meaninglessly, firing strategically pointless rockets. They see no other way out of the situation, but if they were to cease fighting and to elect a responsible, representative Government then I can truly see a way forward to peace.

See, an analogy should probably have some relevance to real life. Here's a better one:

When you keep a HUMAN in a cage, it will do everything you said. IN THAT CASE THE IMPRISONED HUMAN HAS EVERY RIGHT TO SEEK VENGEANCE (through legal means, of course).

What a fucking rotten example.

There we go, you've got me in a nutshell. Although let me clarify, I understand why they need to do it, I understand their decision to do this for reasons I have mentioned already, but I do not support them doing it. Understanding and supporting are different. I have no reason to support the policy. I can understand it though. Two separate things.

Ok cool. I can understand it, but I don't support it...at all. You?

Sorry, but this was a bit of a /facepalm paragraph. I'm glad you see my logic, and I think it's pretty good logic. You conclude your paragraph with "should never work that way," well, guess what sunshine, they do. That's life and it can suck majorly at times. You put a big stake on a risky bet and you lose, you lose all your money, you support the wrong side in a war, you get fucked over. Life

No, you jackass, it doesn't. It is the reason we have foreign aid, hospitals, mental health insitutions - to help people and help right wrongs. For fucks sake, the military is there to ensure that exact same response. "It's life, deal with it" is not the way society works. Wake the fuck up.

Explain how it is conjecture, please.

You say there were maybe probably around 100,000. Conjecture. Guesses. Rubbish.

Glad we can come to concessions, that's why I bother posting. Do you agree with the context that statement was made in, or are you just dissecting it and using it apart from its intended meaning?

Do I support a right of return? Um...yes?

And I'll give it to you - you're easier to work with than the average jackass who frequents these threads.

 

[zazzy1234]

that war between isralle and GAZA sooooooooooooo unfair, what do they think ther're doing. :burn:

 

[zazzy1234]

So many jews ITT. Its making my head hurt.

soooooooooooooo agree,