Polygamy vs Monogamy (2 Viewers)

[veterandoggy]

mahhamad even had wet dreams about aisha before he met her. that ment was was 4-5 years old. i dont know if you think he is a sane man, but to me he sounds like a sexuality obsesses phedophile , who was lucky enough to have money , and power , to choose who he wanted to fulfill his sadistic fantasies.

sorry, i missed the section about him wetting his pants, indicating a wet dream...

and mockery=lack of argument in case you didnt know

 

[veterandoggy]

Why would you think the woman would be entirely subordinant to a man's reproductive whims? She could just say no...

well, i agree, but in third world countries, if this was to be passed, how would they know who the biological father is?

and even in australia, i dont think women want a DNA test for every child they bear

sasha, i think i am going to start ignoring you for a while.

 

[kami]

well, i agree, but in third world countries, if this was to be passed, how would they know who the biological father is?

and even in australia, i dont think women want a DNA test for every child they bear

sasha, i think i am going to start ignoring you for a while.

well there are third world countries(tibet falls under the status of third world doesnt it?) where this is the norm you know - anywhere from two to five or perhaps more brothers have been known to wed the one woman there.
http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/booksAndPapers/family.html

And really, since we are talking arguments to illegalise it, they are already of the ideal that precise paternity of the child doesn't matter as the fathers play a group role. So why would they *need* a DNA test?

One of the mentioned benefits of polyandry is that less children strains resources less and thus ensures survival of the child and the family to a greater degree - but worldwide we are a culture of excess, continually needing to demolish and construct to provide for a rapidly growing population. Though I'm not neccesarily asking why more people don't want to do it, I do wonder at why its illegal.

 

[veterandoggy]

And really, since we are talking arguments to illegalise it, they are already of the ideal that precise paternity of the child doesn't matter as the fathers play a group role. So why would they *need* a DNA test?

in australia the women would want to know who to take maintenance off in case of divorce

 

[SashatheMan]

yuo can ignore me all you want. it doesnt mean anything to me.

when i said wet dream , i embellished the the story to make it more dramatic. Its very similar to what you say when , you provide fine details about intangible things that noone has seen, such as heaven. or the stories of the great beasts you tell me about and how large they are, but you cant name the species, u just describe its magnitude. humans know every large creature that exists, and nothing fits into that description, however you still persist in trying to tell me its real.

look if you follow what mohammad did so much , why dont you go marry a 6 year old and then get a few more wives. why dont you like mohammad did and oppress women and treat them like objects.

you make up weak excuses to defend this prophet , for all the wrong things he did. its ridiculous and i want you to stop being so foolish and open yuor mind up to reality. think rationaly for once and don make stupid claims. i still havent forgot yuor talking thighs hahaha.

 

[veterandoggy]

yuo can ignore me all you want. it doesnt mean anything to me.

when i said wet dream , i embellished the the story to make it more dramatic. Its very similar to what you say when , you provide fine details about intangible things that noone has seen, such as heaven. or the stories of the great beasts you tell me about and how large they are, but you cant name the species, u just describe its magnitude. humans know every large creature that exists, and nothing fits into that description, however you still persist in trying to tell me its real.

look if you follow what mohammad did so much , why dont you go marry a 6 year old and then get a few more wives. why dont you like mohammad did and oppress women and treat them like objects.

you make up weak excuses to defend this prophet , for all the wrong things he did. its ridiculous and i want you to stop being so foolish and open yuor mind up to reality. think rationaly for once and don make stupid claims. i still havent forgot yuor talking thighs hahaha.

humans wouldnt have heard of this large creature, because it is a miraclulously sent down animal, not a mass produced one.

i wont marry more than one unless i am certain that i will not give one more attention than the other. besides, i would feel alot better with someone close to my age. AND THEY GOT MARRIED WHEN SHE WAS 9-17 YEARS OLD!! SHE MADE AN OATH AT THE AGE OF 6.

the only wrong thing that you seem to be stuck on is his marriage to aisha and 11 wives. i wouldnt forget my talking thighs either. the phone rings at your thighs, telling you that someone wishes to speak to you. that is enough for a metaphorical interpretation of that sign. besides, there are many other signs indicating the day of judgement, not just talking thighs. and at least i will be remembered by you when all this dies down...

 

[SashatheMan]

humans wouldnt have heard of this large creature, because it is a miraclulously sent down animal, not a mass produced one.

see once again you start producing a lod of crap. why dont you send these remarkable finding to a biology center? is there bone evidence of this creature? is there any fuking evidence apart from some book. its the same think as reading greek mythology and saying a Minotaur was a creature created by zues. the ancient scrolls say so, it must be without a doubt true.

i wont marry more than one unless i am certain that i will not give one more attention than the other. besides, i would feel alot better with someone close to my age. AND THEY GOT MARRIED WHEN SHE WAS 9-17 YEARS OLD!! SHE MADE AN OATH AT THE AGE OF 6.

we proved it already, that she was 9 when Mohammad inserted his 50 year old penis into a prepubescent and undeveloped little girl.

the only wrong thing that you seem to be stuck on is his marriage to aisha and 11 wives. i wouldnt forget my talking thighs either. the phone rings at your thighs, telling you that someone wishes to speak to you. that is enough for a metaphorical interpretation of that sign. besides, there are many other signs indicating the day of judgement, not just talking thighs. and at least i will be remembered by you when all this dies down...

i am stuck on those things, because i cant see how you can dismiss them so easily when its obviously very immorally wrong and sickening to even think about.

 

[physician]

SashatheMan

"i am stuck on those things, because i cant see how you can dismiss them so easily when its obviously very immorally wrong and sickening to even think about."

Withoutaface

"Muhummad had sex with a 9 year old.
YOUR RELIGION WAS ESTABLISHED BY A PAEDOPHILE!"

There are quite a few things that need to be cleared up, I myself was not aware of the answers to alot of the questions being asked in this thread, however, I did some research and I hope to inform u of the misconceptions that have been spread not merely by ppl in these threads, but by ppl all over the world, specificaly American critics of Islam, and hopefuly provide answeres to all ur questions!

First of all, I would appreciate it, if comments such as the above (i.e Withoutaface's last post in what ive quoted) would be kept away from such serious issues, I think the people in these forums are mature enough to realise that there is no need for such insults, and i would apprecaite it if people on BOTH sides of the argument would simply approach the 'discussion' without resorting to such remarks!


I have quoted the above together, because they adress the same issue and can be cleared up by one post! (although they will be calrified further in ltr posts)

Would a 50-year-old “Prophet of God” have sex with a 9-year-old girl? is a question posed by Christians in California.

Now, theres something VERY important that needs to be mentioned... first of all, to begin with, let me ask u this question: "Why did the Qurayshi people who did not accept Islam at the time of the prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) not use the prophet's marriage to a 9 yr old, as an excuse to impose a great amount of crticism towards the prophet and his message (i.e Islam)?"

before i go on to answer this, I would like to say the following; What's happening is that people are trying to apply the criterions of the Western society to that society that existed in the Arabian Peninsula very long ago.

Now to answer the Question: During the time of the prophet it was normal for a girl as young as 9 to get married, in fact most girls got married at that age, so it was a common practice amongst all in the Arabian penninsula no matter what religion people followed, Just like its normal for someone at the age of say 22 (legally at 18) to marry in Australia, at that time in Arabia it was normal to marry when u were only 9, 10 or even 11... Thus everyone would have had to have been a pedophile at the time as u claim, and thats just not right! To add to all of this I would like to state the following:

Sheikh Faysal Mawlawi, deputy chairman of the European Council for Fatwa and Research writes (this is just an extract):

"...It should be noted that in the hot regions, it’s normal for a girl to attain maturity at a very early age. Thus the case is totally different from that which does exist in the cold regions where a girl does not attain puberty before 21 [Physicians maintain that the age of puberty in the hot regions normally ranges from 9 to 16]." (Now I havnt researched this claim, but if anyone wants to correct it, feel free)

I do not attack christians by the following claims, however christians are the ones who often criticise the prophet Mohammad's (peace be upon him) marriage of A'isha (may Allah be pleased with her), so I ask u this; Have u not read ur own bible? If A christian cannot accept that a 50 yr old man was married to a 9 year old girl, then u should also not accept that an 86-year- old Prophet of God who slept with a young maiden of his own wife without marrying her, as the Bible says (see Genesis 16:1-16). He should then reject all the Prophets who came in the line of Prophet Abraham, including Jesus. He should also reject the whole Bible, Old and New Testament, because they both praise Abraham as a great person.

And yes Abraham (or Ibrahim) was a great person/prophet of Allah as the Muslims believe. We as Muslims, of course, honor Prophet Ibrahim (peace and blessings be upon him) and respect his marriage to Hajar (may Allah be pleased with her). She was the honored mother of Prophet Isma`il (peace and blessings be upon him and upon all the Prophets of God)."

So as I hope u may now understand, at that time getting married to a 9yr old was considered normal, and let a note be taken; accoring to to Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former President of the Islamic Society of North America and Director of the Islamic Society of Orange County, Garden Grove, California: "Historically, it is not confirmed that she was 9 years old when she came in the household of the Prophet. There are various reports from age 9 to age 24."

I will respond to more posts/questions, either soon, or later tomorrow, but please be patient! I will also clear up the issue of the prophet marrying for the purpose of lust and desire!

Peace/Salam

EDIT: I aplogise SashatheMan I just realised u were also refering to the issue of marrying 11 wives (I will answer this soon Insh'Allah/God Willing)

 

[withoutaface]

So your counter is "but everyone else was doing it! :~("

 

[veterandoggy]

So your counter is "but everyone else was doing it! :~("

noooo, his counter is that you are trying to hang onto something that was normal at the time.

its like for example if homosexual marriages were to be allowed in australia later on, and people didnt want to come to australia because it "used" to restrict gay and lesbian freedom, and it was based on anti homosexuals.

 

[SashatheMan]

Would a 50-year-old “Prophet of God” have sex with a 9-year-old girl? is a question posed by Christians in California.

Now, theres something VERY important that needs to be mentioned... first of all, to begin with, let me ask u this question: "Why did the Qurayshi people who did not accept Islam at the time of the prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) not use the prophet's marriage to a 9 yr old, as an excuse to impose a great amount of crticism towards the prophet and his message (i.e Islam)?"

i think your forgetting the timeline things followed in. From what a gather, he got prosecuted by the Qurayshi for trying to ruin their lives by starting to preach against their many gods, so they rebelled and mohammad and his followers fleed, one of the families being Aishas. Howver they did not even migrate at the same time, but abit later. It was only then that he married her.

That means Qurayshi people didnt even know he was gonna marry her, otherwise i believe they wouold strongly use it against him.

before i go on to answer this, I would like to say the following; What's happening is that people are trying to apply the criterions of the Western society to that society that existed in the Arabian Peninsula very long ago.

Now to answer the Question: During the time of the prophet it was normal for a girl as young as 9 to get married, in fact most girls got married at that age, so it was a common practice amongst all in the Arabian penninsula no matter what religion people followed, Just like its normal for someone at the age of say 22 (legally at 18) to marry in Australia, at that time in Arabia it was normal to marry when u were only 9, 10 or even 11... Thus everyone would have had to have been a pedophile at the time as u claim, and thats just not right! To add to all of this I would like to state the following:

first off all i dont tihnk anyone married a 9,10, 11 year odl when they were in their 40's or 50's. thats completely wrong , and then your forgettign sex at that age. People can marry even younger , but only after they reach a proper age do they actaully consummate the marriage. only people of the same young age married and as i said they did not consumate the marriage untill much later.

If you follow the prophets words so much , why dont you follow everything then? you cant say the quran is outdated in this area because we dont do such a thing anymore. you either follow all that he prophasiced including marriage between a middle age man and a 9 year old girl.


Sheikh Faysal Mawlawi, deputy chairman of the European Council for Fatwa and Research writes (this is just an extract):

"...It should be noted that in the hot regions, it’s normal for a girl to attain maturity at a very early age. Thus the case is totally different from that which does exist in the cold regions where a girl does not attain puberty before 21 [Physicians maintain that the age of puberty in the hot regions normally ranges from 9 to 16]." (Now I havnt researched this claim, but if anyone wants to correct it, feel free)

if shows that she was still physically and mentally grown up. why did she play with dolls. i dont tihnk theres 9 years olds anywehre in the world who are mature at that age. they are just not developed anough.

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311)

 

[SashatheMan]

So as I hope u may now understand, at that time getting married to a 9yr old was considered normal, and let a note be taken; accoring to to Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former President of the Islamic Society of North America and Director of the Islamic Society of Orange County, Garden Grove, California: "Historically, it is not confirmed that she was 9 years old when she came in the household of the Prophet. There are various reports from age 9 to age 24."

as i said before its was never normal for a 50 year odl to marry a 9 year old and have sex at that age. if i am wrong show me some source.

physical and mental state of a 9 year old has never changed. so the 9 year olds that were at the time of muhhamad were the same as now. so dont say its normal because of the time, because its still wrong for a 50 year old man to fuck a undeveloped girl, thats why you dont do it in this age.
dude stop raising the age of when she got fucked by grandpa muhammad. i found like 100 sources that say she was 9 years old. and 1 source that sais she might h ave been abit older, now yuor more them doubling her age. stop being ridiculous and read yuor own holly books.

[/QUOTE]

 

[SashatheMan]

noooo, his counter is that you are trying to hang onto something that was normal at the time.

its like for example if homosexual marriages were to be allowed in australia later on, and people didnt want to come to australia because it "used" to restrict gay and lesbian freedom, and it was based on anti homosexuals.

yuor saying yourself the quran is outdated. so why do u keep following the rules and revelations that where relevant only to the time it was made. you have to learn to use yuor own head in the 21st centure not follow an outdates book, and egnore stuff you dont like.

 

[veterandoggy]

yuor saying yourself the quran is outdated. so why do u keep following the rules and revelations that where relevant only to the time it was made. you have to learn to use yuor own head in the 21st centure not follow an outdates book, and egnore stuff you dont like.

i havent said the quran is outdated, only you have said that. i dont remember reading about marriage and age in the quran, as in it doesnt say whether you can marry a 9 year old or not, only that you can marry once she has reached a mature state.

i think your forgetting the timeline things followed in. From what a gather, he got prosecuted by the Qurayshi for trying to ruin their lives by starting to preach against their many gods, so they rebelled and mohammad and his followers fleed, one of the families being Aishas. Howver they did not even migrate at the same time, but abit later. It was only then that he married her.

he is saying that quraysh didnt refuse to follow muhammad because he was a paediphile, cos he wasnt. and the prophet migrated last, along with aisha's father, abu bakr to make sure that everyone had migrated and no one was left behind.

 

[SashatheMan]

he is saying that quraysh didnt refuse to follow muhammad because he was a paediphile, cos he wasnt. and the prophet migrated last, along with aisha's father, abu bakr to make sure that everyone had migrated and no one was left behind.

they refused to follow him , because he was trying to temper with their religion. however at the time that he was tempering, he hasnt yet married aisha, so that wouldnt be a reason for them to refuse to follow him., as it didnt occur yet.

it doesnt matter if aisha left with her family and mohammad, or abit after, becuase that wasnt my point.
but from what a gather, she left after muhhammad with her sister , so yuor wrong.

 

[physician]

i think your forgetting the timeline things followed in. From what a gather, he got prosecuted by the Qurayshi for trying to ruin their lives by starting to preach against their many gods, so they rebelled and mohammad and his followers fleed, one of the families being Aishas. Howver they did not even migrate at the same time, but abit later. It was only then that he married her.

That means Qurayshi people didnt even know he was gonna marry her, otherwise i believe they wouold strongly use it against him.

Whether they knew he was going to marry her or not, is not the issue, they eventually found out . They found his marriage to A'isha (may Allah be pleased with her) rather normal! So They did know (whether it was before or after their marriage, the point is THEY KNEW the prophet was married to Aisha, end of story) and No, they didn’t use it against him at all, let alone "strongly use it against him" as u stated.

first off all i dont tihnk anyone married a 9,10, 11 year odl when they were in their 40's or 50's. thats completely wrong , and then your forgettign sex at that age. People can marry even younger , but only after they reach a proper age do they actaully consummate the marriage. only people of the same young age married and as i said they did not consumate the marriage untill much later.

Is there historical evidence to support this?

If you follow the prophets words so much , why dont you follow everything then? you cant say the quran is outdated in this area because we dont do such a thing anymore. you either follow all that he prophasiced including marriage between a middle age man and a 9 year old girl.

The Quran is not outdated!
I never said the Quran was outdated! I never mentioned anything about the Quran!

U seem to be forgetting all of the Prophet's other marriages, U do realize that the prophet’s wife Khadija was about 15 years his senior (i.e he was about 25 and she was 40 when they got married). Even after Khadija’s passing away, his new wife Sawdah bint Zam`ah was an old-aged widow who possessed no particular appealing qualities.

Under Islamic Law, an individual can marry once they reach puberty, this is unchanged, although its very uncommon in most parts of the Islamic world and amongst muslim families (that is, to get married as soon as one reaches puberty, although alot of people do get married at about the age of 15 ), and since we live in Australia, we must abide by the Australian law (unless it contradicts our religion), however there is no command that we should get married once we hit puberty (it is encouraged and allowed, but not obligatory) therefore Australian muslims must abide by this Australian law, and not get married until they're 18 if theyre living in Australia.

if shows that she was still physically and mentally grown up. why did she play with dolls. i dont tihnk theres 9 years olds anywehre in the world who are mature at that age. they are just not developed anough.

physical and mental state of a 9 year old has never changed. so the 9 year olds that were at the time of muhhamad were the same as now. so dont say its normal because of the time, because its still wrong for a 50 year old man to fuck a undeveloped girl, thats why you dont do it in this age.

dude stop raising the age of when she got fucked by grandpa muhammad. i found like 100 sources that say she was 9 years old. and 1 source that sais she might h ave been abit older, now yuor more them doubling her age. stop being ridiculous and read yuor own holly books.

Im not raising the age, I merely quoted one of the sources i found stating that her age is still disputed, however, I personally believe that she was in fact 9!

As I trust Sahih al Bukhari:

'Aishah, may God be pleased with her, narrated that the Prophet was betrothed (zawaj) to her when she was six years old and he consummated (nikah) his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years. (Saheeh al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64)

And ur right, there are a wide range of sources that do say Aisha was in fact 9 when she got married, I wont deny this , I wasn’t sure previously, but I do accept that she was in fact 9!

In "The Young Marriage of 'Aishah". Author: AbdurRahman R. Squires writes:

"... according to Judaism, Christianity and Islam, right and wrong are ordained by Almighty God. As such, morality does not change over time based on our whims, desires or cultural sensitivities. In cultures where there is no Divinely revealed ruling on an issue, what is right and what is wrong is determined by cultural norms. In such cases, a person would only be considered "immoral" if they violated the accepted norms of their society."

Historically, the age at which a girl was considered ready to be married has been puberty. In Biblical times the age at which a girl could marry was puberty.

As the ahadith about 'Aishah's age show, her betrothal took place at least three years before the consummation of the marriage. The reason for this was that they were waiting for her to come of age (i.e. to have her first menstrual period). Puberty is a biological sign which shows that a women is capable of bearing children. Can anyone logically deny this?

"Puberty is defined as the age or period at which a person is first capable of sexual reproduction, in other eras of history, a rite or celebration of this landmark event was a part of the culture." (Rites of Passage: Puberty, by Sue Curewitz Arthen)

"Getting your period" marks a rite of passage for young girls entering womanhood (From the Women's Resource Center)

An extract from an article 'Physical Changes in Girls During Puberty' has this to say:
"It's normal for changes to start as early as 8 or 9 years of age, or not until 13 or 14."

Part of the wisdom behind Mohammad's (peace be upon him) marriage to Aisha right after she reahed puberty was to firmly establish this as a point of Islamic Law, even though it was already cultural norm in all Semitic societies (including the one Jesus(peace be upon him) grew up in).



The following point is VERY important:

It is upon reaching the age of puberty that a person, man or woman, becomes legally responsible under Islamic Law. At this point, they are allowed to make their own decisions and are held accountable for their actions.

Aisha was accountable for her own actions, and was considered mature enough at the time of marriage to make her own decision! She didnt disagree to marrying a 50 yr old honoured Prophet, I dont see why every other critic seems to oppose her marriage when she never did!

Today, the legal age when one is held accountable as an adult is 18 (in Australia), In Islam it's once u hit puberty!

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If ur still stuck on this issue, then i'll try an clear it up further by answering further questions u might have, however if not, I would like to move on to answer the fact that Prophet Muhammad did in fact have 11 wives (the most he had at the one time was 9) which is in fact more than double the amount prescribed under Islamic law. I will present to u the facts, and explain why the prophet was not being a Hypocrite but rather was simply folowing the commands of Allah, and why in fact he was the only Muslim to be given the right of more than 4 wives.

Insh 'Allah i will support my argument with verses from the Quran and possibly ahadith!

And this is no doubt related to Polygamy (i.e the whole point of this thread)

 

[withoutaface]

The following point is VERY important:

It is upon reaching the age of puberty that a person, man or woman, becomes legally responsible under Islamic Law. At this point, they are allowed to make their own decisions and are held accountable for their actions.

Aisha was accountable for her own actions, and was considered mature enough at the time of marriage to make her own decision! She didnt disagree to marrying a 50 yr old honoured Prophet, I dont see why every other critic seems to oppose her marriage when she never did!

You know what it's called when an adult has sex with someone under the age of 16, even with their consent? Rape.
People at the age of 9 are not mature enough to make decisions such as these.
MUHUMMAD WAS A RAPIST!

 

[SashatheMan]

i will give a proper answer tomorrrow

but she didnt have a choice to marry him or not, her father basicly gave her away, like a person gives away a stock animal or something.

it even sais , she was playign with her dolls, when her father aproched her and told her you are gonna go and live with this man, end of story.

 

[ice_wind]

its weird that a religion started by a polygamic/paedophiliac/rapist is lyk the worlds 2nd largest religion...

its sad, but u know it still happens, apparently even amongst western-born pakistani girls...this day in western countries, they get snet back to pakistan to marry old men so the old men could get citizenship in a western country...totally against their own will...

 

[veterandoggy]

its weird that a religion started by a polygamic/paedophiliac/rapist is lyk the worlds 2nd largest religion...

its sad, but u know it still happens, apparently even amongst western-born pakistani girls...this day in western countries, they get snet back to pakistan to marry old men so the old men could get citizenship in a western country...totally against their own will...

that, my friend, never was part of islam. and sasha, i dont know where you got that "end of story" part, because a woman in islam has the full right as to whether or not she wishes to marry a person. those who do force marriage ie. parents of western-born pakistani girls, do it not because their religion says so, but more because of their lack of religious knowledge.