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Rape Ingrained in Islamic Culture? (1 Viewer)

veterandoggy

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well, NTB, youve had some of my respect since i came here, and what youve lost youve always managed to gain. yes, islam will never get "modern" because a verse was sent down which was along the lines of saying that islam was completed at that time. any new "innovations" or things which have been approved of which may supercede islamic law is classed as "dallalahs" (sorry, dont know it in english), and all of these are in the hell fire. issues have been solved with catholics because of editing, and people worshipping the priests (they follow their new rulings, rulings which werent given by jesus, but taken just as tightly, and have become part of christianity. now ou know why im not christian).

I believe there is much more to a religion than its religious text, and I think the very last thing you would want me to do is read the entire koran and produce my anti-thesis diatribe to your entire religious text.
trust me it wouldnt be as long as you think if it was to be from the quran only.

i follow a conservative religion because it has showed that it is a law that is capable of acheiving peace yet to be seen by secular laws. i dont mean these days, i mean the decades that directly followed the prophets time, in most of the muslim conquered lands.
 
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xeuyrawp

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I think people will only start treating Muslims as social, intellectual, and moral equals when they learn that women deserve the same.
 

2sense

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im asian so i don't give a shit about aussies versus leb.
 

mr EaZy

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Not-That-Bright said:
What the hell? How is it disrespectful to say 'on her rags' ? I know many girls who talk in such way and I understood it to just be another euphemism,
I was gonna respond to the original statement in the same way as some-chic did.
I did think it was disrespectful- and ive never heard anyone use that so called: "Euphemism" before

Maybe im wrong- please bring me a quote from someone on BOS preferrably a female member who would use such a statement.


Not-That-Bright said:
I don't believe I'm ignorant at all, egotistical perhaps, but ignorant I am not.
Maybe its time u changed ur nick mate! :rolleyes:


I believe there is much more to a religion than its religious text, and I think the very last thing you would want me to do is read the entire koran and produce my anti-thesis diatribe to your entire religious text.
The muslims who go on BOS are not experts on islam no matter how much we present ourselves here by quoting the arabic or the Quran.

none of us are married and so you cant expect us to have the knowledge of marriage counsellors. i know thats not your intention - but by asking questions that we are not able to answer- you put us in a position where we are not really representing islam!

most of us have only finished year 12 for instance. when we see something we have never even heard of- say "marriage in rape" it is tempting to leave it aside because we dont know what it is rather than say "i dont know". but then there is an expectation from you that we should have the answer to these questions. and the danger is that we may answer incorrectly.


ill put a basic non -confirmed answer later





You were saying that a woman should not deprive her husband of sex. So in other words, whenever a husband wants sex, he gets it, even if the woman doesn't want to give it.
That is not strictly true...more later


but if u are interested in islam which i know you are (questionable eh! :) ) ummm well sit down, take time out and speak to someone who knows about islam- dont sit infront of your computer expecting answerrs to come

i give this advice to the muslims as well- you really have to go out there and get field information- especially social issues, whats wrong with the leb gangs and stuff like that. im not saying join a gang but u need to get out on the field and not just the comp if u havent done so...
 

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I was gonna respond to the original statement in the same way as some-chic did.
I did think it was disrespectful- and ive never heard anyone use that so called: "Euphemism" before

Maybe im wrong- please bring me a quote from someone on BOS preferrably a female member who would use such a statement.
I have no idea why you would attack me over the use of the word 'rags' when I was quite clearly standing up for womens rights, as I explained to her and I'm sure you read also... that is a weak way to attack what I was saying and it is just an attempt to undermine my perspective. "Oh you aren't sticking up for women! you used to word rags! that is the most derogatory word EVER used against females!"....

Maybe im wrong- please bring me a quote from someone on BOS preferrably a female member who would use such a statement.
Who really cares? I don't know if it's really negative or anything, I have no idea if women would be offended and I don't really care about whether my words are politically correct enough - that's all just pety bullshit.

The muslims who go on BOS are not experts on islam no matter how much we present ourselves here by quoting the arabic or the Quran.

none of us are married and so you cant expect us to have the knowledge of marriage counsellors. i know thats not your intention - but by asking questions that we are not able to answer- you put us in a position where we are not really representing islam!

most of us have only finished year 12 for instance. when we see something we have never even heard of- say "marriage in rape" it is tempting to leave it aside because we dont know what it is rather than say "i dont know". but then there is an expectation from you that we should have the answer to these questions. and the danger is that we may answer incorrectly.
I have looked into what is says in the koran, and I have looked into the laws of nations practicing sharia law... So I know what the muslim perspective is. I am more asking for the muslims to research for themselves and try to prove me wrong. My hope is that once they realise that their religious text is not anti-rape within marriage, then perhaps they will realise it is an extremely context-related book, it was written by men during a time when no one cared about that.

but if u are interested in islam which i know you are (questionable eh! ) ummm well sit down, take time out and speak to someone who knows about islam- dont sit infront of your computer expecting answerrs to come
You know as well as I do that no one is comfortable with their religion being questioned out in public, this is how fights start. I am not going to go around harassing everyone who is muslim in my life, I would rather post on an internet forum, ask the questions, and allow other people to answer them if they so choose...
 

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Not-That-Bright said:
What the hell? How is it disrespectful to say 'on her rags' ? I know many girls who talk in such way and I understood it to just be another euphemism, would I have been more in place in saying 'visited by lady flow' ? It seems to me you just want to label me a misogynist to further your own agenda. I am standing up for the rights of women you dolt, and whether i've used incorrect terms according to your definition of what is politically correct or not, the point of my post was to address an age-old belief (both in western culture and in the scripture of islam) that it is ok for a man to rape his wife. This is at the forefront of modern feminism, and to attack me for having such beliefs is (in my mind) absolutely ludacris.
" On her rags " is derogatory. It is used (and it was used by yourself) for satirical purposes. I do not want to label you anything, im sure people will make their own assumptions of you by your posts neway.


Not-That-Bright said:
It is obvious throughout your post that you're just another religious zealot that is willing to throw away all reason, all logic, all their ideals about the rights of women, mearly to defend your religion.


Religious zealot? puh lease. In case you haven't seen my name, i am a female so why would i want to lower myself to the status of a donkey? (That's what it was like for women, their status, before the coming of Mohammed (pbuh). They were treated like animals. God told them that heaven lies at the feet of your mother. That is the epitomy of respect.
You probably wont read this but, for proof:

The Prophet Muhammad sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam said: "The best believers are the best in conduct, and the best of you are those who are best to their wives." (Tirmidhi) narrated by Abû Hurayrah

"A man asked the prophet Muhammad sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam: 'whom should I honor most?' The prophet replied: 'Your mother'. 'And who comes next?' Asked the man. The prophet replied: 'Your mother'. 'And who comes next?' Asked the man. The prophet replied: 'Your mother'. 'And who comes next?' Asked the man. The prophet replied: 'Your father' " (Bukhari and Muslim).


Qur'ân: "And they (women) have rights similar to those of men over them in a just manner" (2):228

Bible: "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (1 Timothy 2:11-14)


Not-That-Bright said:
I don't believe I'm ignorant at all, egotistical perhaps, but ignorant I am not. Unless you're willing to actually show me how I've been ignorant instead of just name calling?


Im not the one doing the name calling. You're the one who's called me a 'religious zealot'.



Not-That-Bright said:
I believe there is much more to a religion than its religious text, and I think the very last thing you would want me to do is read the entire koran and produce my anti-thesis diatribe to your entire religious text

No, no, please go ahead. It is said in the Quran that those who have read and made their descision are more than allowed to produce something to rival it, if they can. Nobody can, of course.
Also, is it not ironic that so much of your arguement lies in the text that you are refusing to read? You say "it says in islam" .....but you havent even read the Quran! If you are critically commentating on a book, you should do your research, from both perspectives.



Not-That-Bright said:
You were saying that a woman should not deprive her husband of sex. So in other words, whenever a husband wants sex, he gets it, even if the woman doesn't want to give it.
How exactly are you going to construe this differently, and if you just wrote it wrong, can you then go back and answer my original question again?

It is recognised in Islam that the female has POWER in her feminity. She has the ability to give birth, to reproduce and create a new generation. She is a beautiful creature and has power in that beauty. The consent of sex is also her power, but she must not abuse that power, just as all men must not abuse their power. Its simple, really.


Not-That-Bright said:
I want people to understand, that I do not believe that all muslims are rapists... or anything like that. My issue with Islam is that it is an old religion, that teaches the practice of old customs, in particular my issue with Islam is that it appears to not wish to be in any way progressive, it seems from what muslims on these forums have said, that a part of the religion is the acknowledgement that it is the true word of god, and every verse has to be taken literally, and there can be no compromises.

While there are issues with these things in the catholic church, they have over time become more progressive and accepting of a changing world. Of course, it could be argued that is only due to their diminished power, but either way the end result is a more progressive, accepting religion. I do not see this in Islam, I see a far more conservative religion that preaches dangerous social practices that the people of the modern world have fought for years to remove.
I appreciate your statement about "not all muslims". :)

The reason why Islam has not changed is because the word of God, in the Quran, must not be changed. This is why the Bible has many contradictions in it, unfortunetly. We believe in the Bible, but because it has fallen into the hands of the powerful men (it was in the hands of the literate few-latin-speaking minority for over a millenia before the reformation led by Luther) it is no longer the word of God but a version of the origianl Gospel sent down from heaven.
If you change something, it no longer remains pure, in its original form.
Also, because Islam knows holds no bounds in its nationality/race/colour/gender , there are various states that administer and mix their own CULTURAL practices into its law.
 
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xeuyrawp

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Somechick, you seemed to have missed the point of this argument.

Whilst many didacticisms are given in religious texts, the most important ones (about equality and love) are usually never followed through.

Whether the Woman was liberated by Mohammed or not is moot; it just doesn't happen.
 

veterandoggy

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PwarYuex said:
Somechick, you seemed to have missed the point of this argument.

Whilst many didacticisms are given in religious texts, the most important ones (about equality and love) are usually never followed through.

Whether the Woman was liberated by Mohammed or not is moot; it just doesn't happen.
she was in a way answering NTB's thread.
 

Not-That-Bright

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" On her rags " is derogatory. It is used (and it was used by yourself) for satirical purposes. I do not want to label you anything, im sure people will make their own assumptions of you by your posts neway.
Honestly, still attacking me over this? I have more than addressed the issue.

Religious zealot? puh lease. In case you haven't seen my name, i am a female so why would i want to lower myself to the status of a donkey? (That's what it was like for women, their status, before the coming of Mohammed (pbuh). They were treated like animals. God told them that heaven lies at the feet of your mother. That is the epitomy of respect.
In my opinion religion has very little to do with this. Case 1: There was respect for women in areas that did not even know of islam.

Qur'ân: "And they (women) have rights similar to those of men over them in a just manner" (2):228
Yes, women have similar rights to those of men, just not quite as many...

Im not the one doing the name calling. You're the one who's called me a 'religious zealot'.
Well by name calling I mean that I provided evidence for why you are a religious zealot, where as you simply called me ignorant without providing evidence.

Also, is it not ironic that so much of your arguement lies in the text that you are refusing to read? You say "it says in islam" .....but you havent even read the Quran! If you are critically commentating on a book, you should do your research, from both perspectives.
I am looking at Islam as a religion by not just viewing its religious text... I have not read the entire koran, heard all the different translations of different verses, read it in arabic, etc but I think I can still make a fairly justified case against modern islam based on the practices/beliefs of contemporary muslims...

It is recognised in Islam that the female has POWER in her feminity. She has the ability to give birth, to reproduce and create a new generation. She is a beautiful creature and has power in that beauty. The consent of sex is also her power, but she must not abuse that power, just as all men must not abuse their power. Its simple, really.
You still haven't provided me with verses in the koran showing that rape in marriage is a bad thing?

As for the last paragraph you wrote... why are you telling me things I am already aware of? I explained why such a conservative text being followed 'literally' with no concessions is so bad... can you address that?
 
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Not-That-Bright said:
I have no idea why you would attack me over the use of the word 'rags' when I was quite clearly standing up for womens rights, as I explained to her and I'm sure you read also... that is a weak way to attack what I was saying and it is just an attempt to undermine my perspective. "Oh you aren't sticking up for women! you used to word rags! that is the most derogatory word EVER used against females!"....
Who really cares? I don't know if it's really negative or anything, I have no idea if women would be offended and I don't really care about whether my words are politically correct enough - that's all just pety bullshit.
Why dont you qoute me instead of making up your own words? Besides, it's not an attack, it's a criticism. And i never said that's the MOST derogatory word against females....that's reserved for 'patriachy'. If you don't really care...why do you keep bringing it up?



Not-That-Bright said:
I have looked into what is says in the koran, and I have looked into the laws of nations practicing sharia law... So I know what the muslim perspective is. I am more asking for the muslims to research for themselves and try to prove me wrong. My hope is that once they realise that their religious text is not anti-rape within marriage, then perhaps they will realise it is an extremely context-related book, it was written by men during a time when no one cared about that.
If you had read the WHOLE thing you wouldn't be saying that at all...
How can you say no-one cared about natural law? Of course they did:

Qur'ân: "And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations) - flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors" (24:4)
The penalty in the bible is death also.

Not-That-Bright said:
You know as well as I do that no one is comfortable with their religion being questioned out in public, this is how fights start. I am not going to go around harassing everyone who is muslim in my life, I would rather post on an internet forum, ask the questions, and allow other people to answer them if they so choose...
It's not about harrassing people, its about engaging in religious rhetoric with ordinary people. Of course if you go up to a hijabi, start yelling at her or something, naturally, she would run away.
 

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Not-That-Bright said:
I have no idea why you would attack me over the use of the word 'rags' when I was quite clearly standing up for womens rights, as I explained to her and I'm sure you read also... that is a weak way to attack what I was saying and it is just an attempt to undermine my perspective. "Oh you aren't sticking up for women! you used to word rags! that is the most derogatory word EVER used against females!"....
I know you meant well, but im not a woman and i wont be questioning ur use of such words. If it was a woman saying such a statement that would have been different from my point of view- you obviously offended some-chic it seems

at the moment - you sound like someone really passionate about womens rights but yet still make use of words that are chauvinistic in nature. your not alone others make use of the word "cunt" and stuff like that- its become part of our (youth) culture so i guess i have to learn to live with it.

Who really cares? I don't know if it's really negative or anything, I have no idea if women would be offended and I don't really care about whether my words are politically correct enough
i dunno. feminists might- they are concerned about the smallest words that were never chauvinistic from the start- at uts they have a group called "womyns" as opposed to womens' so as to eliminate the "Man" in woman. I dunno where the word Woman came from but i still use it as it was never . Another word is female but that comes from latin meaning "family" but somehow they interpret it differently.


I have looked into what is says in the koran, and I have looked into the laws of nations practicing sharia law... So I know what the muslim perspective is
.

You cant use the Quran on its own. Islam is not a philosophy. You can go to uni and study a 100 year old book on marxism and adopt it and say your a marxist. it doesnt work that way in islam or with any other "revealed" religion. they all came down with exemplars that showed the people how the faith was to be practiced- but our records of these exemplars from 000s of years ago are not reliable so we as muslims are told to follow the prophet Muhammad- May Allah bless him.

The sharia is broad and not narrow as many people and many muslims would believe. We have different schools of legal thought etc and the Quran and Sunnah can be applied to changing social conditions. The mufti is a muslim lawyer or personal advocate you would go to for a non binding ruling on how you should bring islam into your life. WE still have fatwahs being issued now.

You dont know what the muslim perspective is because there are so many of them out there. If you want to know my perspective... and get this... I am not pakistani or arab... then you will have to speak to me and not look into what other countries have written or entrenched "islam" via statues that are not going to be changed.

I would suggest that ... well when you have become more independent, go to a mosque and speak to someone about your concerns and imams will also want to know what non muslims think of us- so you'll be doing a great service to the Australian community by doing so.




I am more asking for the muslims to research for themselves and try to prove me wrong.
Well its a big ask to point out issues where society and islam are at the cross roads and get us to offer a good explanation- simply because islamic knowledge is huge! i mean we have hadiths covering contract law, criminal, adminstrative, family, court procedure-- you name it and to expect us to come back and give a good response on BOS - you cannot really expect a true islamic position. Most of us will consult learned people on these issues and even though we've researched these things we will still go to them and get proper advice.

My hope is that .... perhaps they will realise it is an extremely context-related book, it was written by men during a time when no one cared about that
the only thing worser than evangelicalism is athiest evangelicalism



You know as well as I do that no one is comfortable with their religion being questioned out in public, this is how fights start. I am not going to go around harassing everyone who is muslim in my life, I would rather post on an internet forum, ask the questions, and allow other people to answer them if they so choose..
Theres nothing wrong with getting our religions questioned and in fact its a good thing. If no body questioned terrorism being what islam ordered- the muslim world would have stood by it and hide behind ideas that these people were doing it in response to foreign terror.


but questioning needs to be done in the proper place and time. No imam or sheik would kick you out of a mosque if you are respectful to the place and ask your questions nicely. If its a tough question... write it down and give it to them and tell them you'll come back at a later date- thats if you want a genunine answer because being able to explain the islamic position on everything is not the condition for being an imaam- and some imaams did not grow up here as well. so be diligent with this questioning thing. you have everything to gain and nothing to lose just by asking. and maybe you might benefit as well.... im not asking you to convert; just to dispel your misconceptions in a proper way because your current strategy aint workin.



Islam came to break the cycle of violence and not to foster it (From the Biography of the Prophet we understand this). WE "repel evil with that which is better" (Quran). The terrorist ideologies are not islamic and in some cases they are anti-islamic (from studying the history of such ideologies- they started with the killings of innocent people in times of colonialism).

Lets get this clear for the muslims who are eager to post on BOS:

What would be your response if no one responded to someone's accusations against islam?

Oh and if ur interested in islamic law ill put up a link.

http://nadeem.lightuponlight.com/indexaudios.html

Press Ctl+F and paste this in:

" Shariah-the Sacred Law! "

it was presented at an american uni for 30 mins and 30 mins of questions followed some of which dealt with:

-the salman al rushdie fatwah
- heaps of stuff on women's issues.
- religion and the state: Answer: islam is separate from the state (this is recognised by most islamic countries but western commentators over look this as well)
 

Not-That-Bright

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I know you meant well, but im not a woman and i wont be questioning ur use of such words. If it was a woman saying such a statement that would have been different from my point of view- you obviously offended some-chic it seems

at the moment - you sound like someone really passionate about womens rights but yet still make use of words that are chauvinistic in nature. your not alone others make use of the word "cunt" and stuff like that- its become part of our (youth) culture so i guess i have to learn to live with it.
I'm not 'really passionate'...

i dunno. feminists might- they are concerned about the smallest words that were never chauvinistic from the start- at uts they have a group called "womyns" as opposed to womens' so as to eliminate the "Man" in woman. I dunno where the word Woman came from but i still use it as it was never . Another word is female but that comes from latin meaning "family" but somehow they interpret it differently.
I'm very aware that some of the more radical feminists might be extremely offended by it, but I don't really care about them.

The sharia is broad and not narrow as many people and many muslims would believe. We have different schools of legal thought etc and the Quran and Sunnah can be applied to changing social conditions. The mufti is a muslim lawyer or personal advocate you would go to for a non binding ruling on how you should bring islam into your life. WE still have fatwahs being issued now.

You dont know what the muslim perspective is because there are so many of them out there. If you want to know my perspective... and get this... I am not pakistani or arab... then you will have to speak to me and not look into what other countries have written or entrenched "islam" via statues that are not going to be changed.
Ok, I think I need to clarify exactly what I mean when I'm speaking of 'islam' and 'muslims', I do not mean it to mean every single muslim, or every single version of islam. I mean the more popular version of islam that is practiced/preached within most muslim-majority countries.

As for Sharia law, I am aware that it is merely an attempt to provide laws in accordance with what the country believes god would have wanted. When I talk about it I am not insulting the law of god, I am insulting Sharia law as it is currently practiced.

...

First you say
the only thing worser than evangelicalism is athiest evangelicalism
Then you say

Theres nothing wrong with getting our religions questioned and in fact its a good thing.
Contradition there.... ^
 

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now with rape in marraige

just because Australia made it a crime in 1991- it doesnt mean that aussie men are perfect and dont rape their wives.

theres a saying: "if you live in a glasshouse; dont throw stones!!!"

The Case Rv L (1991) and others like the DPP v Morgan (gang rape) were extreme cases where any idiot will say : hey! thats rape!!

but what about you come home and say to your wife "lets have sex" and she says "i dont feel like it" and you do it anyway- will the courts accept that as rape???

Maybe/maybe not! You would need real proof of that (injury, and struggle and fear of imminent physical harm) and the chances of it working out are really slim- maybe zero- ill find out later (ill email my lecturer when i feel like it). Statistics show that Women dont go to courts for these reasons even if its a widespread phenomenon- the the ruling of RvL isnt even practiced by the regular guy- its mere tokenism for obvious husband wife rape cases.
Most Aussie husbands i dont think rape their wives- but it has happened before.



Now if u had listened to the audio tape- from someone who has worked in a sharia court -
You will probably get the idea that a woman can complain about the way her husband has sex with her even! But sharia courts (i dont know much about islamic procedural law) cannot be effective when the governments (say in the old afghanistan) put limitations or codify "islam" or where the judges themselves are not talented (because these are issues that Australian judges wouldnt go into- domestic ones.) Or where the law of a nation simply doesnt recognise cetain islamic principles. The Prophet Muhammad MAy Allah be bless him warned his nation about becoming judges. Its a huge responsibility and not easily achievable.

What veterrandody probably read was that women should not use sex as a weapon against their husbands- there should really be harmony and friendship and you can do your own research on the consequences of that on the marital relationship=i am not an expert on this - my knowledge is really basic in male/female stuff coz im still single :) - dont worry ill look up these things in time.

I have never heard of a muslim husband and wife rape or abuse case in my local community. Im not denying it has happened. im saying that it has never happened in my family or in the families of our closest friends who tell us everything about their family lives.
I mean ive never seen my dad touch my mum in a bad way ever. nothing !



So islam has set up rules to protect women - the challenge is to now get the modern sharia courts to get them established where they are not ! There used to be checks on these things but now - i dunno whats happened. Islam shouldnt be codified in statutes and ill leave it at that.
 
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Not-That-Bright

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but what about you come home and say to your wife "lets have sex" and she says "i dont feel like it" and you do it anyway- will the courts accept that as rape???
Um.... That is rape, and there isn't the condition of witnesses which is required in iran, syria etc...I wouldn't suggest comparing the legal system in Australia with these others.

I have never heard of a muslim husband and wife rape or abuse case in my local community. Im not denying it has happened. im saying that it has never happened in my family or in the families of our closest friends who tell us everything about their family lives.
I mean ive never seen my dad touch my mum in a bad way ever. nothing !
What does this have to do with anything.

What veterrandody probably read was that women should not use sex as a weapon against their husbands- there should really be harmony and friendship and you can do your own research on the consequences of that on the marital relationship=i am not an expert on this - my knowledge is really basic in male/female stuff coz im still single - dont worry ill look up these things in time.
What a wild confabulation...
 

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2004
Generator said:
Remember, in addition to suggesting that you turn a blind eye after a time, I suggested that you think before you post, because more often than not you fail to adequately address the issue at hand and this tends to lead to a continuation of an argument that shouldn't have developed in the first place. Now, you are only taking the bait that others have thrown into the water, but there's nothing to be gained by stripping your own hide and helping those who are just out fishing for a fool.

If you are open to another piece of advice, I would suggest that you leave the defence of Islam to those who are able to, by and large, articulate their position (eg, [editted]*****). I may not agree with their take on life, but at least they are far more successful than you at actually addressing the issues at hand.
thanks for the being a moderating voice all the time genr.

id like to add a few things:
there are some things that none of us here can handle- and in that case i ask everyone to be patient. I ask the muslims to not take things too personally and to everyone else to give us a hand or to realise the limitations of the muslims on this forum- it is a forum of students not a forum of islamic legal scholars -
the muslims here mean well, and i dont think BOS would be the same without them - especially zahid coz i love that guy!

ill wrap up with a few verses from the Quran For the muslims

Dont take things personally:

Surah 25:63
63. And the servants of the Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth Hawna (dignity and humility, not with arrogance and pride), and when the foolish address them (with bad words) they say; "Salama'' (kind, mild words of gentleness and forgiveness) [description continues]

Dont get bogged down in tough talk:

(And when they hear Al-Laghw (evil or vain talk), they withdraw from it) (28:55)

its a few simple things we can all do.
 
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xeuyrawp

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HAHHAHAHA

mr EaZy said:
the only thing worser than evangelicalism is athiest evangelicalism
hahaha. That's great. I think people who sig stuff are idiots, but in this case, the idiot is in my sig.
 

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