Raped by her uncle, but can she have an abortion? (3 Viewers)

[*TRUE*]

No, I'm not a nurse.

And you're not seeing it for what it is. You keep going on about this innocent child, it will be a cruel and unusual punishment to this child if it is allowed to be born. Even thugh it won't remember the birth (if it lives) THE 11 YEAR OLD GIRL WILL.

I know, I know.
You also keep going on about the innocent child.....its horrible. I am seeing it for what it is. You think i cant comprehend the situation? I certainly cant fully , never having been in it, but im not retarded & I have a heart.
TBH i dont know whether you are right in asserting that the child born will not remember its birth.

 

[scaredytiger]

have you ever met anyone that remembers their birth?

i wonder why.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

I know, I know.
You also keep going on about the innocent child.....its horrible. I am seeing it for what it is. You think i cant comprehend the situation? I certainly cant fully , never having been in it, but im not retarded & I have a heart.
TBH i dont know whether you are right in asserting that the child born will not remember its birth.

Do you remember your birth?

I think I remember something from uni saying what the reason is that we can't remember our own births but I'm not sure what it is, maybe katie knows.

 

[*TRUE*]

Personally I feel that this is a situation that calls for emotional involvement, and not merely theoretical detachment. Why make it worse for the girl? I believe that ethically the life of the little girl has more value than that of the baby. She has been born, lived for 11 years, and then brutalised. Her life and innocence should take precedence.
Although, people keep talking about salvaging what innocence she has left; it makes her sound like a ruined child, but she's not. She probably doesn't fully understand it, and it probably wont have a profound effect for more than a year or so, when she starts to really grasp what was done to her; when she starts wanting relationships and love and consentual sex especially (hopefully considerably longer than a year). Then she'll realise what was done to her innocence. And that's when she'll be wanting to salvage her innocence. As for now, if the abortion goes through, she'll probably be able to behave and feel like an ordinary child. Perhaps she'll be able to block it out for a time, even.

She wouldn't be able to do that if she was forced to have a baby.

Is your position firm because the fetus is not BORN? Is it because you have not seen the fetus that it holds less value? Or is it because the fetus is likely mutated and unlikely to have any sort of happy existance , or....is it all of these factors?
What if the girl had already given birth? Should the baby be allowed to live then?
Unless a fetus is valued less that a born baby ( I think you need to have this defined )...no matter how horrendous, i dont know how you can CHOOSE which life to best assist?

 

[*TRUE*]

Do you remember your birth?

I think I remember something from uni saying what the reason is that we can't remember our own births but I'm not sure what it is, maybe katie knows.

I do not remember my own birth. I didnt think that was what i and Boris were saying...

 

[boris]

I know, I know.
You also keep going on about the innocent child.....its horrible. I am seeing it for what it is. You think i cant comprehend the situation? I certainly cant fully , never having been in it, but im not retarded & I have a heart.
TBH i dont know whether you are right in asserting that the child born will not remember its birth.

OF COURSE I AM RIGHT, DO YOU REMEMBER YOUR BIRTH? DO YOU KNOW ANYBODY ELSE WHO REMEMBERS THEIR BIRTH?

I mean, ffs.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

Is your position firm because the fetus is not BORN? Is it because you have not seen the fetus that it holds less value? Or is it because the fetus is likely mutated and unlikely to have any sort of happy existance , or....is it all of these factors?
What if the girl had already given birth? Should the baby be allowed to live then?
Unless a fetus is valued less that a born baby ( I think you need to have this defined )...no matter how horrendous, i dont know how you can CHOOSE which life to best assist?

Well you have to choose, because either way at least one of them is going to die.

I'm obviously not God, but I know if I was I would not be sitting on my cloud frowning over an eleven year old incest rape victim aborting a baby.

 

[Hollieee]

If she has already given birth, then of course it should be allowed to live.
IMO, the only reason it should be aborted is to protect the girl. I don't personally like/agree with abortion in ordinary circumstances, but these are quite exceptional.
But the point is, I don't think she shoud be forced to get to the point where it will be born.
I'm not arrogant enough to say that even if it was mutated it would have an unhappy existence; it may not. It may be quite content, which makes the issue even more delicate. And it has nothing to do with me having seen the foetus or not, I'm not 100% sure why you mentioned that, tbh.
And I can CHOOSE which life to best assist, because I can relate to some extent.
If she got pregnant and then the baby was dropped by a stork onto the doorstep, I think that somewhat alters the situation; she could give it up for adoption (althought admittedly it would be awful having to explain to an estranged child who their father was 20 years down the track). Its the physical and emotional burdens that come with pregnancy that even mature women have trouble with that is the issue here, imo.

So to sum up, I think the child should be 'best assist[ed]'.

 

[*TRUE*]

OF COURSE I AM RIGHT, DO YOU REMEMBER YOUR BIRTH? DO YOU KNOW ANYBODY ELSE WHO REMEMBERS THEIR BIRTH?

I mean, ffs.

Pardon. I dont think your comment then about remembering the birth was all that relevant.
I dont think the fetus will remember being terminated either.
Of course the birth would practically destroy the girls life.
You arent seeing what i am saying.
I dont need to discuss how traumatic and horrid it all is.
If i were in that situation...I'd care nothing for all my musings right now.
All im saying is , in order to know what is morally right ( assuming people believe in morals) you would have to establish whether fetus=girl in value,
and if so , human existance>undamaged existance of another life.

 

[boris]

Pardon. I dont think your comment then about remembering the birth was all that relevant.
I dont think the fetus will remember being terminated either.
Of course the birth would practically destroy the girls life.
You arent seeing what i am saying.
I dont need to discuss how traumatic and horrid it all is.
If i were in that situation...I'd care nothing for all my musings right now.
All im saying is , in order to know what is morally right ( assuming people believe in morals) you would have to establish whether fetus=girl in value,
and if so , human existance>undamaged existance of another life.

It is relevent, you obviously don't understand.
The mother is going to remember giving birth. There is a high possibility of complications. NOW, the baby isn't going to remember being born with complications, BUT AN 11 YEAR OLD GIRL WILL REMEMBER. It's bad enough giving birth with complications as a consenting adult, LET ALONE AN 11 YEAR OLD.

And I get your point and I have consistently said that until the fetus can survive without being in the mothers womb, with medical intervention maybe, and until it can breathe unaided, IT IS NOT VIABLE. A LIFE THAT IS NOT VIABLE DOES NOT HAVE MORE RIGHTS THAN THAT OF AN ESTABLISHED, LIVING HUMAN.

 

[*TRUE*]

If she has already given birth, then of course it should be allowed to live.
IMO, the only reason it should be aborted is to protect the girl. I don't personally like/agree with abortion in ordinary circumstances, but these are quite exceptional.
But the point is, I don't think she shoud be forced to get to the point where it will be born.
I'm not arrogant enough to say that even if it was mutated it would have an unhappy existence; it may not. It may be quite content, which makes the issue even more delicate. And it has nothing to do with me having seen the foetus or not, I'm not 100% sure why you mentioned that, tbh.
And I can CHOOSE which life to best assist, because I can relate to some extent.
If she got pregnant and then the baby was dropped by a stork onto the doorstep, I think that somewhat alters the situation; she could give it up for adoption (althought admittedly it would be awful having to explain to an estranged child who their father was 20 years down the track). Its the physical and emotional burdens that come with pregnancy that even mature women have trouble with that is the issue here, imo.

So to sum up, I think the child should be 'best assist[ed]'.

So there is a difference between a fetus and a baby? When is the fetus a baby? Does it become a baby when it....pops out...
At the moment i dont like abortion at all. It seems illogical to me to accept it in some circumstances and not in others.... if i were to change my mind i believe id be for abortion whenever it was desired by the 'mum'/carrier
I mentioned having seen the fetus as it would be easier to terminate it if you had no association with it. Less human

 

[HalcyonSky]

So there is a difference between a fetus and a baby?

WHAT DO YOU THINK? CANT YOU THINK FOR YOURSELF FOR ONCE INSTEAD OF LITTERING THE FORUMS WITH THESE RIDICULOUS QUESTIONS?

 

[scaredytiger]

So there is a difference between a fetus and a baby? When is the fetus a baby? Does it become a baby when it....pops out...
At the moment i dont like abortion at all. It seems illogical to me to accept it in some circumstances and not in others.... if i were to change my mind i believe id be for abortion whenever it was desired by the 'mum'/carrier
I mentioned having seen the fetus as it would be easier to terminate it if you had no association with it. Less human

okay, heres how it gets accepted in some circumstances but not in others:

lets look at murder- no foetus, just viable humans.

the facts are: someone killed someone.

would you treat the case any differently if it was euthanasia? self-defense? in defense of a loved one?

do the intentions of the person change the way you view the act?

 

[emytaylor164]

You think abortion is murder, but you support her right to choose. You support the right of a mother to choose to murder her unborn child?

If you really think abortion is murder, the logical train of thought from there is to oppose legal abortion. Ergo, you must want abortion to be illegal, legally forcing her to go through with it.

You can't believe abortion is murder, and at the same time believe she shouldn't be forced to go through with it. Unless you're advocating the right to choose legalised murder. Which is also a valid belief.

You would force her to go through with the pregnancy

I disagree with abortion but i know that if it was illegal and hard to access, there would be dodgy clinics, where they take place under sub-standard condidtions, and backyard abortions.

we are arguing about a baby will probably die anyway, and if not, will in all likelyhood have defective genes.

life of already traumatised child > life of baby with health problems/high likelyhood of dying

i think it should be given the best chance to survive, it is not of any less worth then any other child

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

You cannot apply the same kind of thinking re: abortion, to EVERY SINGLE SITUATION. There are exceptions to EVERY moral standpoint. So you think abortion is wrong. Fine. But is it not also wrong to allow an eleven year old child to give birth to a baby which was concieved by force and will likely not survive to term anyway? On that note, the fact that baby is unlikely to survive makes it unviable. Which makes the life and wellbeing of the mother more important. No matter whether this baby is aborted or not, there is a high chance it's going to die. Why would you allow the pregnancy to go ahead knowing this? because the baby "might" not be stillborn or a 15 fingered freak? That's not a good enough reason. By opposing abortion and assuming that the fetus deserves the right to live as equally as the girl deserves the right to claim back her childhood and continue her life, you are essentially saying that this girl should carry this baby to term and give birth to it, which is disgusting and disregards all respect for the innocence and feelings of the girl. The feelings of the baby don't matter because you know what? it doesn't have any.

 

[emytaylor164]

"I believe these stupid beliefs because I have MORAL ABSOLUTES"

WHERE IN THE BIBLE IS IT AGAINST ABORTION?

Nothing.

[/thread]

If you can't differentiate between a BABY and a FOETUS [Spell it right, shit.]

Then you don't deserve to breathe oxygen.

It says do not kill.

ABORTION IS KILLING.
How much Clearer can you get.

 

[emytaylor164]

You cannot apply the same kind of thinking re: abortion, to EVERY SINGLE SITUATION. There are exceptions to EVERY moral standpoint. So you think abortion is wrong. Fine. But is it not also wrong to allow an eleven year old child to give birth to a baby which was concieved by force and will likely not survive to term anyway? On that note, the fact that baby is unlikely to survive makes it unviable. Which makes the life and wellbeing of the mother more important. No matter whether this baby is aborted or not, there is a high chance it's going to die. Why would you allow the pregnancy to go ahead knowing this? because the baby "might" not be stillborn or a 15 fingered freak? That's not a good enough reason. By opposing abortion and assuming that the fetus deserves the right to live as equally as the girl deserves the right to claim back her childhood and continue her life, you are essentially saying that this girl should carry this baby to term and give birth to it, which is disgusting and disregards all respect for the innocence and feelings of the girl. The feelings of the baby don't matter because you know what? it doesn't have any.

how do you know that a baby does not have feelings?

 

[HalcyonSky]

NO U HAVE TO CONSIDER THE CONTEXT OF KILL, god ordered killings all the time but they were holy and righteous

 

[boris]

It says do not kill.

ABORTION IS KILLING.
How much Clearer can you get.

bullfucking shit
for every instance it says do not kill i bet i can find 10 other instances where the bible CONDONES KILLING

 

[emytaylor164]

NO U HAVE TO CONSIDER THE CONTEXT OF KILL, god ordered killings all the time but they were holy and righteous

It does not destroy my point, effectively abortion is murder.