School and LGBT (2 Viewers)

[enoilgam]

So what do you guys have to say about it? I just want to see some different perspectives on this as it can be quite appealing to one's curiosity.

I think it has gone to far in a sense that there was a whole Pride month and now there is another day essentially. Don't get me wrong, I'm a strong supporter of the LGBT+ community, but I feel that there is a limit. I look at it this way, Veterans get two days per year (ANZAC Day and Remembrance day). If they get two, everyone else should get one. I also think that if I was LGBT+, I would hate the spotlight constantly being on me and the community. Id just want to live my life.

On the whole topic of pronouns etc, I'm not sure I really understand it but I say live and let live. If someone wants to be called they/them, I will respect that and do so. That said, it shouldn't be a crime to use the incorrect pronouns, its a free country and people should be free to be jerks. When you study criminal law, the classic example they give is that you are legally able to step over someone dying of a heart attack. Is it immoral - probably. Illegal - absolutely not. Same logic applies to pronouns.

One of the great things about living in a country like Australia is we are free to disagree (which is a major reason people flock to Australia from overseas). Ultimately, everyone judges each others lifestyles, especially those that are different from their own (for example, in my culture people who are lifelong renters get judged hard). It doesn't matter what we do, there will always be people who disagree and I think the focus of the LGBT+ community needs to move from universal acceptance towards respect and tolerance. You might think being LGBT+ is disgusting and you are free to think it, but morally you should treat LGBT+ people with respect. Likewise, LGBT+ people might think Islam is a backwards and hateful religion. They are free to think it, but that should treat Muslims with respect.

 

[gmenoza]

 

[triangular]

I think op may be referring to wear it purple day! I can't speak for all schools here, but I'd say that the school I go to has a lot of (for lack of better wording) diverse perspectives. There are definitely queer groups present in the school sphere but also homophobia etc. The reason these groups exist is not to push the agenda or transgenderism or whatever people who don't even go to school anymore say it is. It is to provide a safe space and refuge for peers who are often not accepted by their families and want an affirmative space. The purpose of these days/events is to foster openness and acceptance of people who might be different to ourselves, and not demonise and commit hate crimes and murder against them like they did back in the 80s against gay men : D . Often the creation/rejection of queer spaces is misunderstood or politicised by people as an agenda, but it is merely so that we can be our authentic selves and express and explore our identities without fear of repercussion, while gaining worldviews different from our own. It should not be socially unacceptable to deviate from others' perceptions of normal, and instead allow for the fostering of genuine, respectful and empathetic commentary and discourse. To make it easier for some on this website, let's use the study of human experiences in HSC english. Texts provide us with an avenue to understand and if we want to, empathise with different perspectives. We do not have to agree with it, but it is important to understand and respect that they are still legitimate and real and are actually experienced.

On religion, I believe that our relationship with God/our gods is ultimately our own private journey. Like in Islam, we can pray that our brothers and sisters will find the right path etc etc (correct me if I'm wrong any Muslim people out there!), but we should not interfere directly. All religion, in my opinion, was created in the beginning as a way of life to accommodate to its unique physical, social, cultural and economic environment. As a result of globalisation, many religions/ideologies are clashing because they were attuned to distinctive environments. However, we should understand where these perspectives come from, and respect each other. We demonise each other too much without recognising that we are all human beings with real emotions!! We may not agree with each others lifestyles and perspectives, but that does not exempt us from respecting each others identities.

Thanks to anyone who read this far, and have a productive day everyone!

 

[cosmo 2]

the funniest thing about people who transition is theyre always noted to become stereotypes of the gender they think they are

so men who 'become' women go around all day talking about makeup and clothing etc, essentially a two dimensional cartoon character archetype of what a maladjusted man thinks a woman is

 

[maryjane05]

Hi guys, it's some LGBT awareness day today so I just want to start some discussions regarding the topic. Do you guys think schools are pushing it a bit too much?

I think they have a bit of a distorted perspective of "respecting and accepting" others to be inclusive which compels us to use their preferred pronouns and encourage them to do whatever they're doing. I firmly believe that respect isn't framed by the mindless validation and agreement of others, but a genuine advocation for their well-being and treating everyone equally even if they have opposing views. I also find this necessity of reassuring others as an aspect of "respect" and "inclusion" to be somewhat hypocritical since you are essentially repressing those with contradicting perspectives on the topic, which may stem from personal opinion, culture and religion, and subsequently disrespecting their right to the freedom of speech and even just their views, which they rightfully can have. I also feel that the junior years are already confused enough that they shouldn't really be turned even more confused, which can be detrimental due to their misinterpretations of things resulting from their young age, which can affect their beliefs later in life too.

Our school also has these pro-lgbt promotions around the buildings, but kind of funny that the students always take them down or vandalise on them which is a recurring joke at school. We also recently have these tokens for the LGBT awareness, and students would throw them at their friends to "infect" them and the last to touch them is basically "gay".

Although I do find it funny and even make jokes about it, I don't do so maliciously and I don't partake or support the above actions by students. I also think that it's important for school to teach students to respect LGBT individuals, but by actually treating them equally and to be more mature in the subject even if they may have different opinions, rather than just compelling students to mindlessly validate them.

So what do you guys have to say about it? I just want to see some different perspectives on this as it can be quite appealing to one's curiosity.

edit: Also, there is also a boycott today where only a couple students came, there were around 3-5 students in maths today. I only came to see what it would be like because I'm interested in such topic, though I don't support it.

edit 2: Hey guys, good conversations and the availability of people's different perspectives were quite interesting and thought provoking, however, please remember to remain respectful no matter which side you support and your views, the best way to advocate and communicate your ideas is through respectful and nuanced ideas.

I attend a religious school in South West Sydney, we do not tolerate that shit here. It is highly against our religious beliefs and none of us, including some of our teachers entertain those haram activities. It's absolutely disgusting to see how much LBGT12378UYGWE ideologies have impacted the western world and especially schools. I am happy that in my school, we do not tolerate this BS but it's unfortunate to see other so called "Secular schools" enforce LGBT propaganda to brainwash the youth that can barely think for themselves.

 

[maryjane05]

Not all transwomen conform to all or even most of these things - does that mean that those transwomen aren't women? What if a biological woman doesn't conform to literally any of the presenation, behaviors, or responsibilities associated with womanhood? Does that mean she's not a woman?

There is no coherent definition of "woman" you can give that includes all 'transwomen'.

And the idea of gender being socially defined is completely incompatible with gender dysphoria as an innate sensation - the very concept points at an inherent feeling of malehood and womanhood, and the desire in those with gender dysphoria i.e. those who are likely to "understand" the "soically defined nature of gender" to nonetheless surgically remove or alter one's genitals demonstrates the primacy of biology in gender. People with gender dysphoria are not simply (or even necessarily!) opposed to the social factors associated with their sex - they have an inherent feeling that their body doesn't match who they are.



I guaranteee you I could go to literally any society at any point in history and with >99.9% accuracy will tell you who are the men and who are the women, even as viewed by the people in those societies themselves.

And I could put a dress on, I could put make up on, I could put a long wig on, I could do anything else associated with being a woman. It doesn't change the fact that almost nobody anywhere in the world is going to look at me and be tricked into thinking I'm a woman.



There is no changed reality. Some people experience gender dysphoria. It doesn't change biological reality.

Sex and gender were never separate things, gender was used almost exclusively to avoid using the term sex to avoid evoking sexual intercourse for politeness or clarity. It was also used to denote things associated with sex without being sex themselves, not the internal state of someone independant of their biology.



These changes were a result of anatomical and physiological reality - they were NOT changed for ideological reasons.



There has been NO scientific breakthrough that is resulting in these changes to gender. They are exclusively ideological/political in origin. Some male humans feel like they're female, and we're supposed to behave as if this is true. There's zero analogy to taxonomic kingdoms here.



Wrong, totally wrong. Canada have already criminalized misgendering, and a number of US states are in the process of doing so.



Right, one state out of 50, which is less than the number of states that are criminalizing misuse of pronouns.

Also, it's incredibly disingenuous to point at the banning of pro-LGBT books and claim that it's the republicans censoring people. The reality is that no Democrat run state in the US HAS to ban anti-LGBT books, because they would never even make it into the schools and libraries in the first place to warrant banning! If you genuinely believe that the Republicans are the ones in favour of cencorship, then you necessarily belive that all Democrat run states would permit anti-LGBT books in schools and libraries - this is obviously untrue.



Trans men or women? In men's prisons or women's prisons?

There is no sexual assault epidemic in mixed-sex gyms. Should be ban women-only gyms as a form of unfounded discrimination? Or should women get a say in whether they should have to allow people with penises into their spaces?

Based

 

[maryjane05]

I think it has gone to far in a sense that there was a whole Pride month and now there is another day essentially. Don't get me wrong, I'm a strong supporter of the LGBT+ community, but I feel that there is a limit. I look at it this way, Veterans get two days per year (ANZAC Day and Remembrance day). If they get two, everyone else should get one. I also think that if I was LGBT+, I would hate the spotlight constantly being on me and the community. Id just want to live my life.

On the whole topic of pronouns etc, I'm not sure I really understand it but I say live and let live. If someone wants to be called they/them, I will respect that and do so. That said, it shouldn't be a crime to use the incorrect pronouns, its a free country and people should be free to be jerks. When you study criminal law, the classic example they give is that you are legally able to step over someone dying of a heart attack. Is it immoral - probably. Illegal - absolutely not. Same logic applies to pronouns.

One of the great things about living in a country like Australia is we are free to disagree (which is a major reason people flock to Australia from overseas). Ultimately, everyone judges each others lifestyles, especially those that are different from their own (for example, in my culture people who are lifelong renters get judged hard). It doesn't matter what we do, there will always be people who disagree and I think the focus of the LGBT+ community needs to move from universal acceptance towards respect and tolerance. You might think being LGBT+ is disgusting and you are free to think it, but morally you should treat LGBT+ people with respect. Likewise, LGBT+ people might think Islam is a backwards and hateful religion. They are free to think it, but that should treat Muslims with respect.

LGB and T are pretty different. They group it together to introduce absurd new ideas such as transgenderism. How the fuck does one feel like th opposite gender? It has become a trend nowadays and should be treated as nothing more than a mental disorder or ignored

 

[Rattlehead15]

I attend a religious school in South West Sydney, we do not tolerate that shit here. It is highly against our religious beliefs and none of us, including some of our teachers entertain those haram activities. It's absolutely disgusting to see how much LBGT12378UYGWE ideologies have impacted the western world and especially schools. I am happy that in my school, we do not tolerate this BS but it's unfortunate to see other so called "Secular schools" enforce LGBT propaganda to brainwash the youth that can barely think for themselves.

You're going to have to get used to it then because, unless you go back to whatever country sees it as 'haram' then you can't expect other Australians to conform to your theocratical totalitarian ideologies. I'm glad to be living in a free country where people can express themselves without being threatened by the government.

 

[enoilgam]

I attend a religious school in South West Sydney, we do not tolerate that shit here. It is highly against our religious beliefs and none of us, including some of our teachers entertain those haram activities. It's absolutely disgusting to see how much LBGT12378UYGWE ideologies have impacted the western world and especially schools. I am happy that in my school, we do not tolerate this BS but it's unfortunate to see other so called "Secular schools" enforce LGBT propaganda to brainwash the youth that can barely think for themselves.

As opposed to Islamic ideology? If it is so "haram", why is your family here and not in the Middle East? You are fair to believe what you want, but it's rich dissing the western world when you have immigrated here. Obviously things cant be that special in the Middle East. The West must have a bit more going for it me thinks...

Also, you say " How the fuck does one feel like th opposite gender? It has become a trend nowadays and should be treated as nothing more than a mental disorder or ignored". I put it to you, how does one feel it is ok to treat women so poorly which is common across the Middle East? How does one feel ok with cutting the hands off thieves as per Sharia law? Should Islam be treated as a mental disorder and ignored?

Not saying I think Islam is a mental disorder or should be ignored, but like, if you want to criticise LGBT it opens the door for reciprocal criticism.

 

[random93810938]

I attend a religious school in South West Sydney, we do not tolerate that shit here. It is highly against our religious beliefs and none of us, including some of our teachers entertain those haram activities. It's absolutely disgusting to see how much LBGT12378UYGWE ideologies have impacted the western world and especially schools. I am happy that in my school, we do not tolerate this BS but it's unfortunate to see other so called "Secular schools" enforce LGBT propaganda to brainwash the youth that can barely think for themselves.

Yea, the private schools (almost all, are religious) acknowledge the movement, but rather than pushing students to "respect" it through an unquestioned agreement for it, they discourage students from bullying and bias towards them and advocate for equal treatments of these students no matter their view on this, which is what respect really means.

 

[random93810938]

As opposed to Islamic ideology? If it is so "haram", why is your family here and not in the Middle East? You are fair to believe what you want, but it's rich dissing the western world when you have immigrated here. Obviously things cant be that special in the Middle East. The West must have a bit more going for it me thinks...

Also, you say " How the fuck does one feel like th opposite gender? It has become a trend nowadays and should be treated as nothing more than a mental disorder or ignored". I put it to you, how does one feel it is ok to treat women so poorly which is common across the Middle East? How does one feel ok with cutting the hands off thieves as per Sharia law? Should Islam be treated as a mental disorder and ignored?

Not saying I think Islam is a mental disorder or should be ignored, but like, if you want to criticise LGBT it opens the door for reciprocal criticism.

I'm not a Muslim but often the country's "religious beliefs" are not actually reflected in its politics. For example from the early 1930's, Germany was a largely Christian population, yet their actions in World War Two, and their political policies were a direct contradiction to their religious beliefs. Same as modern Russia where it is a largely Christian country but its senseless crimes highlights their hypocrisy, and that they are infact, not consistent with their religion. In many cases, the scriptures of religion can be manipulated to contradict what it really means, including the terrorism of "Muslims" that they claim to be justified by their teachings, but upon closer interpretations (explained to me by my Muslim friend) and inspecting the context of the text and what it is really trying to say, it doesn't actually advocate for violence etc

 

[random93810938]

Doesn't change the fact that Islamic countries oppress women and minorities, regardless of whatever some book says

so it's not the religion but the politicians and policy makers that are the root cause then, so why frame it on the religion itself, also explains why MaryJane would move to a Western country and "why is your family here and not in the Middle East" regardless of their religious beliefs.

 

[random93810938]

Name me some Christian, Buddhist, any other religion, countries that have such extreme views and policies. If there's a strong positive linear correlation between the religion and the policy, I'm gonna assume using my Maths Advanced knowledge of Pearson's correlation coefficient that something's up with the religion.

On what grounds does the burden of proof lie on me when I wasn't trying to "proof" anything but rather invalid the statement that "Muslim countries are oppressive therefore the religion is also oppressive"?

 

[band6yesplease]

Name me some Christian, Buddhist, any other religion, countries that have such extreme views and policies. If there's a strong positive linear correlation between the religion and the policy, I'm gonna assume using my Maths Advanced knowledge of Pearson's correlation coefficient that something's up with the religion.

but also random93810938 did name already them with Germany and Russia?

 

[random93810938]

You're the one trying to invalidate a true statement, so I'd expect some proof to do so. But I'm sure you can't defend your argument because the truth is crystal clear so I don't blame you for pushing back on trying to support such a statement.

I invalidated a "true" statement by providing the examples of why it was untrue, thus showing why your point that you're trying to proof isn't as concrete as you think. If you are trying to proof your point, you have to proof it.....

 

[dav53521]

For example from the early 1930's, Germany was a largely Christian population, yet their actions in World War Two, and their political policies were a direct contradiction to their religious beliefs

Wasn't this because the Nazi Party and the Catholic Church had a quite tense relationship to the point where the Nazi party tried to replace the Catholic Church as they didn't like each other at all because of the clashing ideologies.

 

[band6yesplease]

Wasn't this because the Nazi Party and the Catholic Church had a quite tense relationship to the point where the Nazi party tried to replace the Catholic Church as they didn't like each other at all because of the clashing ideologies .

Kinda, Hitler actually signed a Concordat with the Pope in the early 1930s which said that they would not act against one another despite their ideological differences and the Catholic Church would effectively turn a blind eye to the actions/policies of the Nazis- and they did so for the most part..

 

[random93810938]

Wasn't this because the Nazi Party and the Catholic Church had a quite tense relationship to the point where the Nazi party tried to replace the Catholic Church as they didn't like each other at all because of the clashing ideologies .

Yea there is a clash although not entirely but I was going for the population in general where most are Protestant and Catholic, the party can only enforce such extremist views through the support/at least apathy of the public.

 

[band6yesplease]

Also, while certainly not as extreme, Australia still had laws against homosexuality in the 1990s and rights like gay marriage weren't granted til 2017 so we can't really knock these countries when we, even in a democratic, increasingly secular state, took a fair while to reform our laws

 

[Unovan]

Also, while certainly not as extreme, Australia still had laws against homosexuality in the 1990s and rights like gay marriage weren't granted til 2017 so we can't really knock these countries when we, even in a democratic, increasingly secular state, took a fair while to reform our laws

bit of sor knowledge leaking out