Selective Schools: Good or Bad? (1 Viewer)

Scinery

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Ive been having this argument with some people a lot lately and being a selective student myself i think that the system is fucked and should die. as in, there should be no such system.

a) A student is pushed to the limit with study at the age of ten

b) When they are entered into a selective school, there is always one or two smart freaks who achieve exponentially better marks than this student at one or more subjects, giving the student comparatively low self esteem.

c) This low self esteem can be compared to the low self esteem of someone who is "dumb" in a comprehensive school

d) on the other hand, the smarter people at selective schools would have the same level of self esteem as the most intelligent people at a comprehensive school, and often the same capacity to learn, the only difference being the range of opportunities available at the school for them to advance.

e)Comprehensive students at this point often change schools to a private or selective school where they are put up against much smarter students than those in their old school, and it takes them months to adapt.

b) Selective school children have notoriously bad communication skills, and need to attend "interview tuition" to give the allusion of a good personality.

c) Comprehensive students acknowledge that there are hundreds of selective schools with higher standards of study than them, and this affects their motivation.

d) Similarly, Selective high school students (except ruse) acknowledge that there are hundreds of students at better selective schools than them and this affects their motivation

e) There is bullying BETWEEN selective schools, let alone between selective schools and comprehensive schools. Additionally, there is a large section of society who will judge a child based on their school. these students ARE aware of this, and what follows is lower self esteem.

We all know that the selective schools test is not an adequate measure of capacity, those of us at selective schools all know one person who was smarter than us in year 6 who didnt get in to as good a school as we did. Theres little room for advancement in later years and it just gets tedious.

I like the system of ranked classes within the school that changes based on ability, if the main issue is the learning environment and atmosphere.

ive been bottling this up all day and i just HAD to release it somewhere other than msn, i felt the best place would be here. Id love to hear your thoughts.

~vix
 

Bobness

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You didn't consider the political agendas, socio-cultural paradigms of recognised achievement and modern society's fixations upon tangible results.

Just like there are talented student programs at public and independent/private schools, so there are selectives.

"b) Selective school children have notoriously bad communication skills, and need to attend "interview tuition" to give the allusion of a good personality."

Wrong, oh so wrong. I am not aware of any interview 'tutors' and with that comment you are almost confessing that you yourself (as a selective student) lack a 'good personality'.

Not to psychoanalyse your intentions, but are you simply feeling the heavy strain of the competitive preliminary environment as Year 12 draws nearer?
 

Bobness

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I hope gh3y ends up teaching at a selective so he can similarly feel this supposed culture of anxiety :D
 

Scinery

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Bobness said:
Wrong, oh so wrong. I am not aware of any interview 'tutors' and with that comment you are almost confessing that you yourself (as a selective student) lack a 'good personality'.

Not to psychoanalyse your intentions, but are you simply feeling the heavy strain of the competitive preliminary environment as Year 12 draws nearer?
Well no, im comparing myself to other students among me who are under the impression that students at comprehensive schools are mentally retarded, and when they realise that oh golly gosh they arent, it comes back and bites them in the ass...i.e they get turned down for a job and find out that stupid guy got in.

and as to the second part, yes i am :) because i realised that im actually smart, because ive been thinking im stupid because im considered less smart within my grade.
 

munchiecrunchie

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hmm I personally don't have a problem with the selective school system, but I do agree that it does come with some disadvantages.

I think that people have just taken the concept of a selective school to a level it was never intended to be at.

From my understanding, the system of selective schools was set up to allow gifted students to learn in an environment that better caters for their learning needs eg work at a faster pace, extensions on topics, etc

I think that people have taken this to a point where a person's worth and intelligence is judged by whether or not they attend a selective school, and this has led to the whole tutoring pressures that 10 year old students are facing, and the rivalries, etc

Its a bit hard now to kind of get rid of all the disadvantages and bring it back to the way it was intended to be, but I think that removing the selective school system would be a step backwards. Those students who have learning capabilities beyond the average student do greatly benefit from this system, and it does help them achieve to their full capabilities (from my experience, I know its a big generalisation)

I'm not really sure that there is a solution, I guess its just a matter of changing people's perceptions on the the whole matter.
 

x jiim

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As someone who goes to a selective school, I think I enjoy it a lot more than if I went to a comprehensive school. The work is more suited to your level, and we work faster and get more challenging stuff so we aren't just sitting around being bored. But if you don't get it, you can feel really dumb, especially if everyone else gets it.

I guess life at a selective school [I go to ruse] is quite sheltered... I don't go out or drink or anything half as much as some of my friends from other schools, which I guess could be good or bad. The competitive thing is a little annoying sometimes, but I find we all try to help each other do our best. Between selective schools, well there's a lot of "If Baulko beats us, we'll never live it down" but aside from that...

So overall, selective schools are good. Just the whole "I must get into a selective school or there is no point finishing high school at all or going to uni [alright, that's a little extreme]" is stupid. If a student is smart and motivated, and can access the material they need to learn, they should be able to acheive well regardless of whether their school is private, selective or comprehensive.
 

wendus

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chill xjiim. baulko will not beat you in 2009, but NSG will dominate you in 2008. believe me we will. Lol.

so to add to the debate, i agree with what xjiim says. basically we're rather sheltered but i find a lot of nsg's tend to have a pretty good social life balanced with work. if you're actually a gifted student it's better to go to a selective school so you can keep up your standard. that's the main thing.
 

nrs1990

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I know the competitive nature of selective schools has both good and bad aspects. Personally, I find that it pushes me to do the best I can do; it stops me getting complacent and simply coasting. However, it does put students under more stress.

But the reason I'm really for selective schools is the students -- so many smart people, all together. It's great to be with other people who think like I do, who challenge and extend me. Some of my friends are amazingly smart, and it's great to chat with people who are so quick.

I think that it's also advantageous in classroom learning. For one thing, there are less people who don't want to learn and disrupt the class for everyone else. But it also takes class discussions to a higher level, having people who are interested and have opinions on the work at hand.

Maybe being among smart people lowers my self-esteem -- I don't know -- but it's gotta be better than being embarrassed at getting better marks or attempting harder subjects than the people around me. At a selective school, I feel normal, but sometimes, among others, I just feel strange, because my priorities are different. I feel strange for going for the highest UAI I can, or for wanting a challenge academically. I just want to fit in, but sometimes I don't, and I hate that. At my school, though, I can just be me, and that's fine.

I'm very much for selective schools; they're not perfect, but I know that my experiences of high school are so much better than they would have been at my local comprehensive.
 

Continuum

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Scinery said:
Well no, im comparing myself to other students among me who are under the impression that students at comprehensive schools are mentally retarded, and when they realise that oh golly gosh they arent, it comes back and bites them in the ass...i.e they get turned down for a job and find out that stupid guy got in.

and as to the second part, yes i am :) because i realised that im actually smart, because ive been thinking im stupid because im considered less smart within my grade.
The catalyst for your rant against selective schools perhaps? :rolleyes:
 

Scinery

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Continuum said:
The catalyst for your rant against selective schools perhaps? :rolleyes:
LOL no shit. yeah thats why im all anti now. its helping though. i spent my afternoon helping my cousin with chem. i really am rather bright xD

oh but i wouldnt RATHER go to a comprehensive school, i LOVE my school and its competitive discussion-ness. i just dont like what it does to people.
 

undalay

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People will always be better then you.

Get over it.

Don't blame the selective system, its brilliant imo.

You need to accept who you are.
 

lyounamu

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Scinery said:
Ive been having this argument with some people a lot lately and being a selective student myself i think that the system is fucked and should die. as in, there should be no such system.

a) A student is pushed to the limit with study at the age of ten

b) When they are entered into a selective school, there is always one or two smart freaks who achieve exponentially better marks than this student at one or more subjects, giving the student comparatively low self esteem.

c) This low self esteem can be compared to the low self esteem of someone who is "dumb" in a comprehensive school

d) on the other hand, the smarter people at selective schools would have the same level of self esteem as the most intelligent people at a comprehensive school, and often the same capacity to learn, the only difference being the range of opportunities available at the school for them to advance.

e)Comprehensive students at this point often change schools to a private or selective school where they are put up against much smarter students than those in their old school, and it takes them months to adapt.

b) Selective school children have notoriously bad communication skills, and need to attend "interview tuition" to give the allusion of a good personality.

c) Comprehensive students acknowledge that there are hundreds of selective schools with higher standards of study than them, and this affects their motivation.

d) Similarly, Selective high school students (except ruse) acknowledge that there are hundreds of students at better selective schools than them and this affects their motivation

e) There is bullying BETWEEN selective schools, let alone between selective schools and comprehensive schools. Additionally, there is a large section of society who will judge a child based on their school. these students ARE aware of this, and what follows is lower self esteem.

We all know that the selective schools test is not an adequate measure of capacity, those of us at selective schools all know one person who was smarter than us in year 6 who didnt get in to as good a school as we did. Theres little room for advancement in later years and it just gets tedious.

I like the system of ranked classes within the school that changes based on ability, if the main issue is the learning environment and atmosphere.

ive been bottling this up all day and i just HAD to release it somewhere other than msn, i felt the best place would be here. Id love to hear your thoughts.

~vix
I get your points but I do have agree with you on the majority of the issues you seem to have. As many people already mentioned before, accept who you are. If you cannot accept who you are, who can? Your level of self-esteem depends sorely on you. It is you who needs to have a different mindset to lift your own self-esteem.

I don't go to Selective High School but that does not mean I see myself academically lower than them. I may be better than few but at the same time there are people who are better than me. I think Selective High School system is a pretty good system as it promotes academic competition among students to increase their performance, and hence their qualities.
 

tommykins

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undalay said:
People will always be better then you.

Get over it.

Don't blame the selective system, its brilliant imo.

You need to accept who you are.
123
 

Aplus

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undalay said:
People will always be better then you.

Get over it.

Don't blame the selective system, its brilliant imo.

You need to accept who you are.
+1
 

Continuum

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Scinery said:
LOL no shit. yeah thats why im all anti now. its helping though. i spent my afternoon helping my cousin with chem. i really am rather bright xD

oh but i wouldnt RATHER go to a comprehensive school, i LOVE my school and its competitive discussion-ness. i just dont like what it does to people.
Lol. Looking at this thread, I have my doubts.
 

SimonLee13

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Self esteem issues... which apply to a very small minority of people. Your argument rests on this premise only. According to you, a huge population are erratic as they feel they are inferior? Btw, you think 10 year olds are pushed to their limits? Bullshit. People in grade 7 in China work harder than yr 12's here. Study 5 hours a day everyday when they come home. Then tutoring which the majority attend, is followed up on weekends.
 

Scinery

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SimonLee13 said:
Self esteem issues... which apply to a very small minority of people. Your argument rests on this premise only. .
now that? is false

Look this thread was intended as a request for peoples opinions. If i really was that dissatisfied i would be going to a private school. i just would PREFER the system of opportunity / G&T classes / Ranked classes within schools.

And if it was just my opinion, The NSW Parents and Citizens Association and the NSW Teachers Association wouldnt have tried to dismantle it in 2002 by making schools partially selective. wiki ftw
i know it looked like a lot of generalisations but they werent really meant to be, they were more specific examples that ive seen too many times. im very much aware of the large population of selective high school AND comprehensive kids with high self esteem and friends and futures.

~peacexvix
 
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primebevo

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x jiim said:
If a student is smart and motivated, and can access the material they need to learn, they should be able to acheive well regardless of whether their school is private, selective or comprehensive.
Doesn't this just prove a point to the contrary? Selective schools are wasteful and are purely a political issue. Why is it that all other states in Australia have no selective schools?

The first debate about selective schools in New South Wales began in the 1950s and 1960s where the then Director of secondary education, Hedley Yelland (known for his implementation of the Wyndham Scheme), believed that selective schools were unnecessary because adequate competition was possible in a properly run large comprehensive, and wasteful because, while great students fared well in selective, the merely good fared much better in comprehensives.

I do not think there is any need for selective schools other than the need for some students to feel important just because they passed an idiotic test in year 6, comprising some of the most narrow-minded curricula in the western world.
 

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