State Rank vs Allrounder (4 Viewers)

[GoldyOrNugget]

Oh I didn't know about the Dean's Award. I guess that fulfills my criteria for exclusivity.

Still, I don't see how you can compare being in the top 5% of a cohort to achieving a state rank. To get a state rank you have to be in the top 0.1%-0.5%. The top 5% of ASB students almost certainly don't all have 90+ WAMs because that would be a ridiculous grade distribution. You also get 3 shots at the Dean's list as opposed to one shot at the HSC.

You said yourself that 17% of eng students have a DN+ WAM. That's students at the 83rd percentile or above, which is the ATAR equivalent (relative to the cohort) of 83.

I agree that the WAM calculation is broken. Even within a single faculty, different lecturers give marks following different distributions. I don't think WAM should be taken too seriously; like ATAR, it's quite meaningless in the real world.

 

[Squar3root]

Oh I didn't know about the Dean's Award. I guess that fulfills my criteria for exclusivity.

Still, I don't see how you can compare being in the top 5% of a cohort to achieving a state rank. To get a state rank you have to be in the top 0.1%-0.5%. The top 5% of ASB students almost certainly don't all have 90+ WAMs because that would be a ridiculous grade distribution. You also get 3 shots at the Dean's list as opposed to one shot at the HSC.

You said yourself that 17% of eng students have a DN+ WAM. That's students at the 83rd percentile or above, which is the ATAR equivalent (relative to the cohort) of 83.

I agree that the WAM calculation is broken. Even within a single faculty, different lecturers give marks following different distributions. I don't think WAM should be taken too seriously; like ATAR, it's quite meaningless in the real world.

However it is nice to have something to show that you are better than everyone else

 

[nerdasdasd]

All rounder is piss easy. State rank is crazy hard

EDIT: dean's list is easier than both...

Not sure if srs

 

[anomalousdecay]

Oh I didn't know about the Dean's Award. I guess that fulfills my criteria for exclusivity.

Still, I don't see how you can compare being in the top 5% of a cohort to achieving a state rank. To get a state rank you have to be in the top 0.1%-0.5%. The top 5% of ASB students almost certainly don't all have 90+ WAMs because that would be a ridiculous grade distribution. You also get 3 shots at the Dean's list as opposed to one shot at the HSC.

You said yourself that 17% of eng students have a DN+ WAM. That's students at the 83rd percentile or above, which is the ATAR equivalent (relative to the cohort) of 83.

I agree that the WAM calculation is broken. Even within a single faculty, different lecturers give marks following different distributions. I don't think WAM should be taken too seriously; like ATAR, it's quite meaningless in the real world.

Mate for ATAR, the system includes everyone who entered your grade in year 7. So if a lot of people drop out by year 12 then you basically get free ranks.

That's why they have the whole mystery mark in place because it varies year to year in there.

And not everyone does go to uni afterwards. At UNSW all the students need an 80+ ATAR to even get in now.

So your percentiles are skewed to include the bottom 80% as well. Realistically a 17th percentile in the ATARs of 80 to 100 would be somewhere around 96.

And you have to remember uni is completely different. There are 99+ students out there who may crumble in uni. However, in turn there are students on low 80's who might come back.

 

[seanieg89]

So your percentiles are skewed to include the bottom 80% as well. Realistically a 17th percentile in the ATARs of 80 to 100 would be somewhere around 96.

Are you saying that beating 80% of the students who sit the HSC exams would equate to a 96ish ATAR?

Do you have stats to back this up? I really don't believe the effect of including students who don't complete the HSC is close to this significant.

(I would expect it to be more like 86. A bit higher if you mean beating 83% of students who sit HSC exams, but I can't see how it could equate to high 90s.)

Edit: Oh I see, you are instead talking about the fact that people in the UNSW cohort were in the top 20% of ATAR's, so any ranking within the course is relative. I am not sure I agree with this logic, as the two criteria for ranking (ATAR and WAM) are so different and reward such different skill sets.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, my opinion is that state ranking (in popular subjects) is "harder" than the dean's list or award, and is comparable to a 90ish WAM at a uni like usyd or unsw. Obviously not harder in terms of content, but just harder in terms of how well you have to perform with what skills you have relative to the cohort with what skills they have.

(I am saying this as a student with experience mostly in mathematics, sciences, and some philosophy...but I have a lot of friends in engineering so I know a bit about what the marks are like there. I recognise that in some degrees, notably law at high-end universities, that high WAMs seem to be rarer and are generally considered a more impressive achievement.)

 

[D94]

Oh I didn't know about the Dean's Award. I guess that fulfills my criteria for exclusivity.

Still, I don't see how you can compare being in the top 5% of a cohort to achieving a state rank. To get a state rank you have to be in the top 0.1%-0.5%. The top 5% of ASB students almost certainly don't all have 90+ WAMs because that would be a ridiculous grade distribution. You also get 3 shots at the Dean's list as opposed to one shot at the HSC.

But you need to remember that you aren't really comparing two systems that are akin to each other. Uni marks may be distributed across grades, whereas HSC marks are not. Theoretically, the whole state can achieve a mark of 99. That cannot happen at uni (or at least at UNSW). Whilst you get 3 shots at the Dean's List, you have to think of it as achieving significantly well for all your subjects, not just one. State Rank is just one subject, not all your subjects.

You raise that the top 5% can't be on 90+ WAM, but going by UNSW gum leaf, it is likely that the majority are in that high 80s, low 90s region: https://my.unsw.edu.au/student/academiclife/assessment/gumleaf_diagram.html

Of course that isn't perfect, but it illustrates grade distributions at the top end, and considering the ASB, and Commerce specifically holds the largest number of students, chances are the majority of those courses satisfy that median distribution.

You said yourself that 17% of eng students have a DN+ WAM. That's students at the 83rd percentile or above, which is the ATAR equivalent (relative to the cohort) of 83.

Come on now, you don't seriously believe that. Going by your logic, the top 50% (who would have around a 67-70 WAM) would have an ATAR equivalent of 50. Do you seriously believe that? The 83rd percentile of high achieving students (i.e. students who already achieved an ATAR of 85+) is not the same as the 83rd percentile of your Year 7 cohort.

The great majority of UNSW engineering students would have an ATAR of at least 85. Let's assume that's normally distributed. A student that achieves in the top 20% would most likely have achieved a low-mid 90s ATAR. I'm not saying a 75 WAM is around 93 ATAR, but that is a more likely percentile comparison than what you are suggesting.

I agree that the WAM calculation is broken. Even within a single faculty, different lecturers give marks following different distributions. I don't think WAM should be taken too seriously; like ATAR, it's quite meaningless in the real world.

WAM needs to be taken seriously for engineering since that puts you in your Honours Class. Sure once in the real world, it doesn't mean much, but to get there, it is still very important.

 

[Squar3root]

Mate for ATAR, the system includes everyone who entered your grade in year 7. So if a lot of people drop out by year 12 then you basically get free ranks.

That's why they have the whole mystery mark in place because it varies year to year in there.

And not everyone does go to uni afterwards. At UNSW all the students need an 80+ ATAR to even get in now.

So your percentiles are skewed to include the bottom 80% as well. Realistically a 17th percentile in the ATARs of 80 to 100 would be somewhere around 96.

And you have to remember uni is completely different. There are 99+ students out there who may crumble in uni. However, in turn there are students on low 80's who might come back.

Like me! I am owning Sydney boys and knox kids

And D94 is always right

 

[Squar3root]

It kinda looks bad if you got 99+ ATAR and then only get a credit average wam at uni

 

[D94]

Edit: Oh I see, you are instead talking about the fact that people in the UNSW cohort were in the top 20% of ATAR's, so any ranking within the course is relative. I am not sure I agree with this logic, as the two criteria for ranking (ATAR and WAM) are so different and reward such different skill sets.

But there poses the problem with comparing WAM to state rank. They both have completely different criteria. A sustained effort over the course of your degree (bear in mind factors such as scaling that may increase or reduce your actual mark), compared to a sustained effort in 1 subject over 1 year, and then it boils down to 1 exam (which isn't affected by aligning since everyone gets aligned the same).

I'm more interested in how they do the NRSL WAM/GPA to ATAR. I came across this thread: http://community.boredofstudies.org...-transfer-into-usyd-unsw-law-year-2013-a.html

Someone posted:

2012 Atar: 98.25
GPA: 6.0

NSRL: 97.125

I believe the NSRL is the average of the ATAR and GPA. So working back, that means a GPA of 6.0 is equivalent to 96. A GPA of 6.0 would probably be greater than a Distinction WAM (on a point to mark comparison), so a Distinction WAM would still be in the 90s.

 

[anomalousdecay]

Are you saying that beating 80% of the students who sit the HSC exams would equate to a 96ish ATAR?

Do you have stats to back this up? I really don't believe the effect of including students who don't complete the HSC is close to this significant.

(I would expect it to be more like 86. A bit higher if you mean beating 83% of students who sit HSC exams, but I can't see how it could equate to high 90s.)

Edit: Oh I see, you are instead talking about the fact that people in the UNSW cohort were in the top 20% of ATAR's, so any ranking within the course is relative. I am not sure I agree with this logic, as the two criteria for ranking (ATAR and WAM) are so different and reward such different skill sets.

I am referring to your EDIT. However I did acknowledge your "I am not sure I agree with this" with my "uni is completely different" statement. I am not saying what I said is exactly an accurate description, all I am saying is that for GoldyOrNuggets assumption, he could have at least taken the assumption the way I showed him, but in the end the assumption is always false as uni is indeed completely different.

Like me! I am owning Sydney boys and knox kids

And D94 is always right

Lel I am not owning anyone but am co-operating well with everyone.

 

[Squar3root]

Its hard to cooperate with people when you say you are from western Sydney and they assume you are going to assault them or something. I swear I'm gonna shank the next kant who thinks this

 

[anomalousdecay]

Its hard to cooperate with people when you say you are from western Sydney and they assume you are going to assault them or something. I swear I'm gonna shank the next kant who thinks this

M8

I have friends from woop woop and the SB's are happy to be friends with us all lol.

 

[Squar3root]

M8

I have friends from woop woop and the SB's are happy to be friends with us all lol.

woop woop?
And who's SB?

 

[anomalousdecay]

woop woop?
And who's SB?

woop woop means middle of nowhere.

Sydney Boys lel.

 

[Squar3root]

woop woop means middle of nowhere.

Sydney Boys lel.

Lel, as you probably figured out, I am a bit (well significantly) slow.

Ohh yeah I've friends with a lot of people from different schools and geographical locations now but the pretentious ones I haven't gotten along with

 

[anomalousdecay]

Lel, as you probably figured out, I am a bit (well significantly) slow.

Ohh yeah I've friends with a lot of people from different schools and geographical locations now but the pretentious ones I haven't gotten along with

There's a reason why they are pretentious.

So they can just die alone in 100 years time.

 

[Drifting95]

woop woop means middle of nowhere.

Sydney Boys lel.

He is clearly talking about spiritual being

 

[Squar3root]

He is clearly talking about spiritual being

thats what I thought but then the grammar didn't make sense

 

[anomalousdecay]

Hahaha SR you de-railed again.....

 

[Squar3root]

Hahaha SR you de-railed again.....

No; you did with your ambiguous acronym