The Abortion Debate... (2 Viewers)

[glycerine]

phanatical, you are making gross generalisations and assumptions based on your own insular experiences.

i've been having sex regularly since i was 14. for the record, i do think i was too young, up until about a year ago, when i was 16. i've always understood what i've been doing and what it means TO ME. just because sex means gregarion choirs and deep emotional committment to you... doesn't mean that's what it means to everyone.

also, you're full of shit. believe it or not, our generation did not actually invent sex. wow! what a concept! just because sex is more open now than in the 50s... doesn't mean people didn't do it, and without the protection that's now more prevalant since to increased education rather than indoctrination

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Prove it......(this is where your argument falls down)...its simply your opinion with nothing more to back it up other than '16 year olds are not mature enough'...16 year olds are not mature enough to make mature choices.


Question

How do you learn to make an informed decision?

Answer

Education?

Question

Does age have anything to do with making an informed decision?

exactly

Hit the nail right on the head with that one, or rather, Phanatical's head

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Yes, society should be teaching them not to get pregnant. And the only sure-fire way to prevent pregnancy is by promoting abstinence

The only sure-fire way to avoid plane crashes is to never fly on a plane. But hey, if you like to travel, that can really screw up your lifestyle.

 

[Phanatical]

I quote the age of 18 because that Is the age at which society feels one is responsible for themselves. If society ever decides that a 16 year old should have the right to vote, or get drunk, or join the army, then sure, the age of consent should match that (though I don't believe they'd be responsible enough to handle those sorts of responsibilities)

Age of Consent should match Age of Majority because the act of sex comes coupled with responsibilities on par, if not greater, than other responsibilities of adulthood.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

I quote the age of 18 because that Is the age at which society feels one is responsible for themselves. If society ever decides that a 16 year old should have the right to vote, or get drunk, or join the army, then sure, the age of consent should match that (though I don't believe they'd be responsible enough to handle those sorts of responsibilities)

Like I said, society regulates depending on what it thinks fit. Just because it regulates one thing for drinking, one thing for driving, and one thing for voting - you can't say that sex MUST equate to the legal recognition for everything. It's different, which is why there is a different age cut-off.

Age of Consent should match Age of Majority because the act of sex comes coupled with responsibilities on par, if not greater, than other responsibilities of adulthood.

Arguably not actually... voting is affecting the balance of power of the whole country, getting drunk entails subjecting your body to forces which younger people have far less ability to control, appreciate and involves posing a danger to other people and one's self. Joining the army - well let's face it they don't want kids in the bloody army, enough said. The army and drinking involve higher risk activities owing to immaturity. Teens, if educated, are not really putting themselves under any more risk than adults when having sex however. I mean you can be as immature as you want, so long as you're educated enough to wear a condom, it doesn't matter.

 

[Phanatical]

You really are a paternalistic fellow. Were your parents strict on you as a 16 year old never allowing you to make decisions for yourself? Do you resent the choice and freedom that is given to certain 16 year olds? Do you now feel older enough to accept the challenge of sex and its responsibilities since i assume that you are now 19 years old?

I strongly suspect you are trying to insult me.

 

[Phanatical]

I mean you can be as immature as you want, so long as you're educated enough to wear a condom, it doesn't matter.

Sure it does, since a girl can still get pregnant even with the use of a condom. I don't think a 16 year old is old enough to deal with the decision of terminating what could possibly be seen as a life. Even if she believes that the unborn foetus is just a collection of cells, like dandruff or something, she might not believe that when she is more mature.

 

[ur_inner_child]

I will. I whole heartedly will. I know I fucking will. And if someone slams with a "you don't know the future", this is constant.

Same with my belief that gay people should be tolerated. That racism is shit. That religion has some value, and that McDonalds is unhealthy. It's my belief based on a criteria that holds strong for me. I know my argument is not strong, but my belief is.

 

[Phanatical]

you seem to assume that more mature people would assume that abortion is wrong.

I most certainly do not. I believe that my classmate who had her first child at 12 would probably have aborted (and certainly Should have in my opinion) if she could understand that carrying the child to term wasn't a good idea. She had her second child at 16, and even at 20 I still don't think she's responsible enough to understand the implications of getting repeatedly pregnant.

 

[Phanatical]

I will. I whole heartedly will. I know I fucking will. And if someone slams with a "you don't know the future", this is constant.

Same with my belief that gay people should be tolerated. That racism is shit. That religion has some value, and that McDonalds is unhealthy. It's my belief based on a criteria that holds strong for me. I know my argument is not strong, but my belief is.

A lot of the opinions I had at 16 aren't the same as those I have at 19. Only difference is that I don't have to live with any mistakes I may have made at that age.

 

[katie_tully]

I most certainly do not. I believe that my classmate who had her first child at 12 would probably have aborted (and certainly Should have in my opinion) if she could understand that carrying the child to term wasn't a good idea. She had her second child at 16, and even at 20 I still don't think she's responsible enough to understand the implications of getting repeatedly pregnant.

And just what ARE the implications of getting repeatedly pregnant, considering she's has a total of two children, 4 years apart?

 

[katie_tully]

A lot of the opinions I had at 16 aren't the same as those I have at 19. Only difference is that I don't have to live with any mistakes I may have made at that age.

Assuming evey child that is born to a teenager is a mistake? Or that every teenager who has a child will regret it forever?
My mother had me as a teenager, she doesnt regret it, nor does she consider me a 'mistake'.

 

[Phanatical]

And just what ARE the implications of getting repeatedly pregnant, considering she's has a total of two children, 4 years apart?

The fact that she'll probably never complete her education. The fact that she was not ready to understand the Responsibilities inherant to motherhood (and that she'd need to rely on others to fulfill those responsibilities), and the fact that her kids will be disadvantaged for that.

How can a 12 year old, or a 16 year old for that matter, understand responsibility? They can't. I sure as hell couldn't at 16, and nor could anybody else I knew.

 

[ur_inner_child]

A lot of the opinions I had at 16 aren't the same as those I have at 19. Only difference is that I don't have to live with any mistakes I may have made at that age.

I'm saying that my belief is catergorised in the same beliefs that will remain unchanged. I know that some DO change, but there was room, eg: my opinion on Christianity. I knew there could be room.

For me, my beliefs on racism, abortion, and homophobia will basically remain the same over a strict moral code.

 

[katie_tully]

The fact that she'll probably never complete her education. The fact that she was not ready to understand the Responsibilities inherant to motherhood (and that she'd need to rely on others to fulfill those responsibilities), and the fact that her kids will be disadvantaged for that.

How can a 12 year old, or a 16 year old for that matter, understand responsibility? They can't. I sure as hell couldn't at 16, and nor could anybody else I knew.

Maybe you and everybody you know are slow?

 

[waterfowl]

That's ridiculous saying the age of 18 matches maturity because that is the age in which someone legally is allowed to drink etc; because in many other countries the legal age to drink, smoke etc etc is 16.

 

[katie_tully]

The fact that she'll probably never complete her education. The fact that she was not ready to understand the Responsibilities inherant to motherhood (and that she'd need to rely on others to fulfill those responsibilities), and the fact that her kids will be disadvantaged for that.

How can a 12 year old, or a 16 year old for that matter, understand responsibility? They can't. I sure as hell couldn't at 16, and nor could anybody else I knew.

I've seen many people who have children go on to further their education. You're making your decision based on your social group, which evidently must be the special education block, because what you've said so far implies that they're all slow.
You have no fact to back up your argument, you keep going back to when you were 16... well hey, not everybody else at 16 was is off with the fairies playing transformers.

 

[glycerine]

you're quoting individual cases to prove immaturity which is exactly the same as me saying "well *I* was mature enough, therefore everybody is".

hey, considering that the drinking age in countries in america is 21 (in the majority of states), do you reckon they should raise the age of consent to 21 as well?

 

[Phanatical]

Maybe you and everybody you know are slow?

Or it might have something to do with the fact that those of us who WERE more mature than the rest of our age group were the ones who weren't getting pregnant at 16. Ironically, it's the ones who are the most immature for their age who have to make the most mature decisions, and they quite frankly aren't ready to face that sort of decision. Society should take some responsibility and take action to prevent 16 year olds being forced into that position.

 

[glycerine]

That is a huge fucking generalisation. If you believe the streetsmart booklet, 52% of 16 year olds have had sex.If you believe the report of the NSW chief health officer, 3.15% of women under 20 have children. Yeah, they're all soooo irresponsbile. This was in 1999, and considering how much education has improved even in that period, it may be even lower.

http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/public-health/chorep/mum/mum_teen.htm